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David Chan

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This might be something seen for an upper level 2 or L3 MA..


Skier advanced male late 50s.
Terrain groomed black pitch, spring "crud"
Task Short Radius turns with consistent speed control.

Again Reminder, NOT looking for correction/fixes. This is an exercise for people to practice their MA eyes.

What's going on with ski/snow interaction?
Where is turning power coming from?
How are edges created?
What's the body performance?
Be specific with body parts and performance.

ETC.

Think about your "BERP" or REPPP...
 

Sunnysloper

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I’ll give it a shot in the spirit of “practice MA eyes”, I’m Ok being completely wrong.

The skier is:

Increasing edge angle by inclining to the inside of the turn.

Directing pressure to the outside ski by angulating the body and leveling his shoulders but is not leveling his hips.

Releasing his weighted edges by extending off of his outside edge resulting in a taller stance in transition and excess pressure at end of the turn.

Directing pressure to the tips of the skis at the start of the turn, occasionally resulting in the tails lifting off the snow.

Absorbing the increase in pressure directed into the skier during the turn with passive retraction, letting the knees bend but not bending them, ending up shorter in the turn than in transition.

Rotation that creates upper and lower body separation in this skier is limited and forced by the terrain/snow, not intention.
 
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David Chan

David Chan

getting after it!
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I’ll give it a shot in the spirit of “practice MA eyes”, I’m Ok being completely wrong.

The skier is:

Increasing edge angle by inclining to the inside of the turn.

Directing pressure to the outside ski by angulating the body and leveling his shoulders but is not leveling his hips.

Releasing his weighted edges by extending off of his outside edge resulting in a taller stance in transition and excess pressure at end of the turn.

Directing pressure to the tips of the skis at the start of the turn, occasionally resulting in the tails lifting off the snow.

Absorbing the increase in pressure directed into the skier during the turn with passive retraction, letting the knees bend but not bending them, ending up shorter in the turn than in transition.

Rotation that creates upper and lower body separation in this skier is limited and forced by the terrain/snow, not intention.

Since you opted to do your MA in this format, Please elaborate and defend the following.

You mention increases edge angles by Inclination, yet directing of pressure comes from angulation. Which one is it or is it both?

You talk about active extension off the outside edge and excess pressure at the end of the turn, yet you talk about passive retraction letting the knees bend. Be more accurate.

Rotation, Considering equipment, speed, and snow, would that really be possible? Skier is not going really fast enough to really bend that ski (from what I am looking at) IIRC that is a 14.3m radius ski. Those turns look a lot shorter than that.

Want to elaborate on what cues you are using for your MA?
 

Sunnysloper

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Interesting. Hopefully my format is ok, I’ll stick with it.

It’s both. Inclination to the inside of the turn allows the skis to be put on edge because the bottom of the foot is inclining too. Angulating toward the outside of the turn, opposite the inclination, keeps the pressure on the outside ski and its edge and off of the inside ski allowing the skier to balance better on the outside ski.

The retraction builds to the apex of the turn the and happens slower than the extension move at the end of the turn. The snow coming off the skis and the end of the turn indicate the skier is extending aggressively to get off the old edges.

There is certainly rotation that’s creating a tighter turn radius but the hips and shoulders follow the legs a bit more than is needed. If the legs were allowed to rotate under the hips more the skier would show more upper and lower body separation potentially allowing a more direct line.

Cues include how much of the base of the ski can be seen during the different parts of the turn, the snow coming off the ski, apparent length of his legs, position and movement of the line where his jacket meets his pants.
 
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David Chan

David Chan

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@Sunnysloper ,Talk more about the cues you say you are using. Be specific how and when are they happening, how do they affect the ski snow interaction What does the snow coming off the ski tell you?
 
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bmoose21

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This is beautiful skiing.

What's going on with ski/snow interaction?
Skis are pivoting slightly after transition then engage and progressively tip through the turn, with appropriate fore/aft pressure (tip to tail bend) as well as ski-to-ski for the snow conditions.

Where is turning power coming from?
Progressive tipping of the skis utilizing ski design. At the top of the turn the pivot is created by the release of stored energy in hips which directs the lightened skis towards the fall line.

How are edges created?
Clearly inside ski tipping is used to create 'inclination' and edge angle at the top of the turn. Outside leg flexion/relaxation at turn completion aids in moving the torso CM inside the next arc.

What's the body performance?
Be specific with body parts and performance.

This skier is likely skiing actively with eversion/inversion of the foot/ankle inside the boot. Hip musculature is actively involved to create U/L separation, or, alternatively stated, to 'rotate' the femur in the hip socket so that the hips do not follow the skis. Release of and balance transfer is utilizing primarily old outside leg flexion/relaxation, and foot pullback. It appears here is tension in the hamstrings at turn completion which accomplishes recentering/fore-aft. There are a couple of turns that use some new outside leg extension early but it is not aggressive - I disagree completely with the previous reply about active extension snow being thrown at the end of the turn. Snow is thrown laterally as expected from the ski path and the snow is soft. Torso is not following the skis and u/l separation is generally is appropriate for the turn shape, anything more aggressive would create more of a pivot at the top of the arc. Tail of ski off the snow occurs when the skis are light and the skier is in perfect dynamic balance.
Hands/ pole usage -- are ok in these turns not affecting the turns negatively in this case.
 
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David Chan

David Chan

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@boose21
Since you went there..what cues are you using to determine hamstring tension.

Other questions.

What cues are you using that make you think this skier is primarily using flexion of the old outside leg to release the edges. Which joints are in play here.

Edge angles.. is there any angulation going on, how does this affect the turn, where in the turn are maximum angles created and what creates them?
 

bmoose21

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Sorry have been busy and not on here in awhile.

@boose21
Since you went there..what cues are you using to determine hamstring tension.
What cues are you using that make you think this skier is primarily using flexion of the old outside leg to release the edges. Which joints are in play here.

Edge angles.. is there any angulation going on, how does this affect the turn, where in the turn are maximum angles created and what creates them?

About hamstring tension -- I think interpretation of what is happening beyond what is visually obvious is an important goal of MA, although my comment may have been a little unclear since there would almost always be some hamstring tension. I do think it's important to mention specifically -- around :06 (viewing the end of the right turn) the feet are ahead of hips prior to transition and after release the feet recenter back (almost) underneath the CM with the knee joint closing, the hip opening and the ankle closing. For this to happen in this particular turn there must be enough hamstring (and glute) tension through the end of the turn to bring the skis back under the skier and recenter. More specifically,both the quad and hamstring are contracted at turn completion, but subsequent relaxation or lengthening of the quad muscle allows the hamstring tension to win out - resulting in the the knee joint closing while the ankle closes, while the hip opens up (due to glute contracting). Also simply looking at the joints opening/closing isn't enough to determine what active muscular movement is involved. As an extreme example, you might see the knee and ankle joint close as the hips open if the skier ran into a tree stump. So I also look at the CM/torso path. Here the torso deflects quite a bit as the knee joint closes, indicating to me that these joint angles are not created simply through momentum and relaxation. By the way, I view the ankle closing as a passive closing of the ankle caused by muscle actions higher up rather than through 'dorsiflexion' (which to me seems to imply an active pulling up of the toes towards the tibia),

Cues for release using flexion - outside leg length decreasing after apex, (knee closing is the primary cue) - also increasing snow spray from inside ski as force transfers to the new outside/old inside ski. No exaggerated upward movement of torso at release.

There is hip angulation with increasing knee angulation towards the end of the turn. The effect on the turn of hip angulation is to create balance by decreasing the 'platform angle' . To be honest I'm not a fan of the skills concept idea that edge angles are a combination of inclination and angulation -- although skiers often use knee angulation to some degree to control edge angles, edge angles are not generally controllable from the hip in my view. Also to say 'inclination' creates edge angles is not very helpful. How is the inclination created? Here you could say edge angles are created in large part through the leg flex, combined with inside leg movement that allows the path of the torso to track inside of the skis (thus creating 'inclination'). Turn completion is also important to set these angles up.

As for maximum angles -- edge angle is highest near turn completion due in large part to slope angle as active edging/tipping near the end of the turn isn't evident in every turn. The visual cues for this are complex, but would involve the degree of knee angulation at the end of the turn, the angle of the skis across the fall line at turn finish, and the actual edge angle achieved.
 
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David Chan

David Chan

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Sorry have been busy and not on here in awhile.



About hamstring tension -- I think interpretation of what is happening beyond what is visually obvious is an important goal of MA, although my comment may have been a little unclear since there would almost always be some hamstring tension. I do think it's important to mention specifically -- around :06 (viewing the end of the right turn) the feet are ahead of hips prior to transition and after release the feet recenter back (almost) underneath the CM with the knee joint closing, the hip opening and the ankle closing. For this to happen in this particular turn there must be enough hamstring (and glute) tension through the end of the turn to bring the skis back under the skier and recenter. More specifically,both the quad and hamstring are contracted at turn completion, but subsequent relaxation or lengthening of the quad muscle allows the hamstring tension to win out - resulting in the the knee joint closing while the ankle closes, while the hip opens up (due to glute contracting). Also simply looking at the joints opening/closing isn't enough to determine what active muscular movement is involved. As an extreme example, you might see the knee and ankle joint close as the hips open if the skier ran into a tree stump. So I also look at the CM/torso path. Here the torso deflects quite a bit as the knee joint closes, indicating to me that these joint angles are not created simply through momentum and relaxation. By the way, I view the ankle closing as a passive closing of the ankle caused by muscle actions higher up rather than through 'dorsiflexion' (which to me seems to imply an active pulling up of the toes towards the tibia),

Cues for release using flexion - outside leg length decreasing after apex, (knee closing is the primary cue) - also increasing snow spray from inside ski as force transfers to the new outside/old inside ski. No exaggerated upward movement of torso at release.

There is hip angulation with increasing knee angulation towards the end of the turn. The effect on the turn of hip angulation is to create balance by decreasing the 'platform angle' . To be honest I'm not a fan of the skills concept idea that edge angles are a combination of inclination and angulation -- although skiers often use knee angulation to some degree to control edge angles, edge angles are not generally controllable from the hip in my view. Also to say 'inclination' creates edge angles is not very helpful. How is the inclination created? Here you could say edge angles are created in large part through the leg flex, combined with inside leg movement that allows the path of the torso to track inside of the skis (thus creating 'inclination'). Turn completion is also important to set these angles up.

As for maximum angles -- edge angle is highest near turn completion due in large part to slope angle as active edging/tipping near the end of the turn isn't evident in every turn. The visual cues for this are complex, but would involve the degree of knee angulation at the end of the turn, the angle of the skis across the fall line at turn finish, and the actual edge angle achieved.

Re:interpretation beyond visual, Fair enough.... Clearly you understand the interaction. Since this was a “practice for MA you might get in an exam” session the reason I asked you to clarify, is if you “infer” something you are not really sure of, the examiner very often will check to make sure you understand the concept or at least can defend why you make any specific statement like that. I might even say that some of your “explanation of passive ankle movement vs dorsiflexion” might also be a place where an examiner might “pull the string” a bit more.

If we consider that edge angles are the relationship of ski base to snow, not the position of our body, then inclination and angulation both will change the “edge angles” when we incline into a turn, create edge angles, when we “angulate” we also create edge angles.
The skills concept (especially in the new fundamentals wording) is that all good skiing/skiers manage/control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation. In other words, there is not a “right or wrong” to the concept, it just is part of good skiing.

Again, in an this “exercise” while you show that you understand the concepts, just telling the cues you are using and what affect they have with ski snow interaction I believe would have been enough. The follow up questions are more to see if you are just “saying something you heard” and don’t understand, or to see if you truly have a good understanding of what you just said in your MA.

Hint for those taking exams. In your exam, Be complete with your analysis, but no need to dig further or interpret how the movement was created. If the examiner needs to check for understanding they will ask. It’s real easy to get sucked down a rabbit hole.
 

bmoose21

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Re:interpretation beyond visual, Fair enough.... Clearly you understand the interaction. Since this was a “practice for MA you might get in an exam” session the reason I asked you to clarify, is if you “infer” something you are not really sure of, the examiner very often will check to make sure you understand the concept or at least can defend why you make any specific statement like that. I might even say that some of your “explanation of passive ankle movement vs dorsiflexion” might also be a place where an examiner might “pull the string” a bit more.

If we consider that edge angles are the relationship of ski base to snow, not the position of our body, then inclination and angulation both will change the “edge angles” when we incline into a turn, create edge angles, when we “angulate” we also create edge angles.
The skills concept (especially in the new fundamentals wording) is that all good skiing/skiers manage/control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation. In other words, there is not a “right or wrong” to the concept, it just is part of good skiing.

Again, in an this “exercise” while you show that you understand the concepts, just telling the cues you are using and what affect they have with ski snow interaction I believe would have been enough. The follow up questions are more to see if you are just “saying something you heard” and don’t understand, or to see if you truly have a good understanding of what you just said in your MA.

Hint for those taking exams. In your exam, Be complete with your analysis, but no need to dig further or interpret how the movement was created. If the examiner needs to check for understanding they will ask. It’s real easy to get sucked down rabbit hole.
a

Can you give an example of an edge angle created with only hip angulation, and no inclination? This would maybe help me understand how hip angulation creates edge angles.
BTW, this is my personal approach to MA that I find more useful than the PSIA Exam approach for improving skier performance. I would not approach MA this way for an exam.
 
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David Chan

David Chan

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a

Can you give an example of an edge angle created with only hip angulation, and no inclination? This would maybe help me understand how hip angulation creates edge angles.
BTW, this is my personal approach to MA that I find more useful than the PSIA Exam approach for improving skier performance. I would not approach MA this way for an exam.
Only hip angulation would be extremely hard to do. There would most certainly be some inclination and going back to the fundamental. "Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation" it's a matter of adjusting both to gain the edge angles desired.

Very often we begin by inclination without angulation and add angulation as needed to adjust the edge angles. If all we do is Incline without any "angulation" we will almost always end up on our outside edge of the inside ski which many of us know is not an ideal position to be in.

re your personal approach, nothing wrong with that. I appreciate the thought you put into it. Since the point of this "exercise/practice" was to help us All learn more about methods of MA. For me it gets me thinking about different approaches to MA, it also points out flaws in my thinking, or get's me to re-evaluate things in a different way. For those following along, it may spark an idea or help them develop a better eye for how they break down the movements. I totally understand that exam's are a different than real life teaching but they are related in that someone still learning how to do MA, if they can get to the point where they are not trying to just "get to the fix" and learning how to see the cues, determine what's really going on, then getting to a root cause of a symptom rather than going after the symptom will be more effective and make them and us all better instructors.
 
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David Chan

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I just re-read my comment to you regarding "creating edge angles" through angulation and realized my intent was not to say specifically that we can create edge angles using just angulation without moving our body inside the turn which would by many counts be considered inclination. if all we do is "tip our upper body one way or another bending or "creating angulation" at the hip, we would not create or change the edge angle. We might fall over :P
 

bmoose21

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Thanks for the reply. I realize that any dynamic change in hip angle through the turn would have some small affect on edge angle (Newton's 3rd law). So taking your example, if you first incline into the turn then begin to level the pelvis it would very slightly increase edge angle, however as you mention I believe the primary reason to do this is CM and balance related (ending up on the inside ski) rather than to modify edge angles. This is why I think its much clearer to describe hip angulation as a means of maintaining balance rather than as a means to modify edge angle. I've always found it interesting that this 'fundamental' is inclusive of hip angulation for controlling edge angle, but doesn't mention one of the most basic relationships that affects edge angle--the direction of the ski relative to the fall line!
 

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