MA Practice Intermediate.

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by David Chan, May 22, 2019.

  1. David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    Sounds like we have some interest so here we go.



    This might be for someone working on their L2 MA.

    Reminder, this exercise is not to "improve" the skier but to observe and describe the movements, ski/snow interaction, body performance.

    If you don't know the "technical term" for PSIA, or any other certifying group just do your best. This is meant to be a learning exercise, not a "pick the skier apart" session.

    I recommend you try to build it in some sort of framework. if it's BERP, or what ever you normally use that's fine.

    One of the examiners gave us this "protocol" and I like the way it worked. ST. REPPP

    Skier type
    Turn type
    Rotary
    Edge
    Pressure (fore aft)
    Pressure (foot to foot)
    Pressure (how managed)

    Keep it simple, but be precise.

    Have fun
     
  2. Thread Starter
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    David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    Oh Yeah, Conditions Alta Powder over groomed medium blue pitch. these are 3 different clips so terrain might have changed but the inherent ski patterns don't really change. Adult female. No specific task. and to take the turn type out, I think we can agree that's, for the most part, a Basic parallel turn (not carved)
     
  3. geepers

    geepers Out on the slopes Skier

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    I'm doing certification through CSIA so based on that.

    The #1 thing I see is that the skier needs to make better use of all joints to help maintain balance. 1st lesson would to be drills to increase mobility in ankles/ knees /hips.

    There are plenty of other areas to work on (e.g. turning led with the lower body) but the mobility would be the #1.
     
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    David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    Fair enough (keeping hidden) geepers. The idea is for you to break down the movements. leave out the "fixes and drills" for now. Just what's going on. How are the skis interacting with the snow? CSIA or PSIA movements are still the same. Physics/biomechanics are still the same. terminology may change.

    Go back and elaborate on the following.

    using the REPPP protocol. Reminder. Rotary, Edge, Pressure, Pressure, Pressure (different types of pressure)

    Where is rotary being generated. Whole body, upper body, Hips, or lower body (legs)?
    How are edges being created? and where in the turn are they being flattened (if at all) and where is the maximum edge angle?
    Where's pressure being created (fore aft and if it's variable where in the turn?)
    Does pressure move from foot to foot and if so, where in the turn?
    How is this skier managing pressure? Is it moving up and down (vertical plane), or more down the the hill and is it being done by flexion or extension? (hint, you sort of answered this part)
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  5. geepers

    geepers Out on the slopes Skier

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    Ok, I'll try again.

    Rotary - predominantly whole body turns as one. Some tendency to rotate using upper body counter on turns to the right.
    Edge - flat skis into transition and edged only after the fall line
    Pressure fore/aft - skier static throughout the turn
    Pressure foot to foot - appears to about 50/50 at all times
    Pressure management - skier is static and not building or managing pressure

    In CSIA speak:
    1. Are all joints used to help maintain balance and manage forces on the skis - very little movement in joints. Skier is static throughout the turn. Lower led is upright and there is little movement in the knees/hips.
    2. Is turning led by the lower body (and ski design) - turning is with the whole and sometimes upper body predominates
    3. Is upper and lower body separated allowing angulation to provide grip - The is little gripping of the skis exhibited until the very end of the turn. The there is no separation and almost no angulation and weight remains statically distributed on both skis
    4. Are co-ordinated movement patterns used to direct forces on the skis and control the momentum of the skier from turn to turn - the skier is very static and upright throughout. There is some activity with use of poles at the top of turns.
     


  6. Thread Starter
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    David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    geepers,

    I agree with your assessment. over all nice job..
    RE#2 CSIA, if your assertion is that ski design is making some of the turn, doesn't that require pressure to the shovel, and the ski being edged? How is that being generated?
    RE#3 csia. what creates the most of the edge at the end of the turn.
    RE#4 CSIA How do the poles contribute to the turns and turning power?

    Going back to your first assessment. Which joint might you concentrate on, and where in the turn? and why?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  7. geepers

    geepers Out on the slopes Skier

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    Thank you. It's a little easier to see issues with intermediate skiers.

    Re #2 Not so much my assertion as CSIA wording. A turn may be any combination of rotary and edging - unless it is a pure carved turn. In any event to utilise ski design both tip and tail should be engaged. (We do risk a side discussion on this topic of over-emphasis on loading the shovel.)
    Re #3 The slope.
    RE #4 The skier is exhibiting the beginning of some movement pattern with current pole plant. However timing is a little off, especially turns to the left, and it is not contributing greatly to the skiing.

    The 1st joint I'd like to see change in stance and mobility is the ankle. The skier's upright and rigid stance starts there.
     
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    David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    I have some feedback but need to think a little about it. enjoying a nice glass of red wine, and getting tired. Overall I would say pretty good.
     
  9. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    @David Chan, would you hold off on responding to give others a chance to do their thing first? Since you've "approved" one MA, some might be hesitant to give it a try and say something different, or differently.
     
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    David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    Good point.
    I’ll keep responses “hidden with the spoiler” tag.

    Everyone has their own way to look at the way people move. When we do MA, just because I or anyone else “approves” of an MA, it doesn’t mean you writing what you see should be avoided. Meaning please to stop just because I or anyone else says yes or no.

    You may approach it differently and we all could learn something new.
     
  11. Ski&ride

    Ski&ride Getting on the lift Skier

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    Not being an instructor (why am I reading MA? Don’t know :huh:), I cheated and read the spoilers.

    So why is the need to go beyond the couple of biggest issues?

    After all, a student is typically not able to absorb more than 2-3 changes at a time. But more significantly, once the student changes something significant, many of the other “issues” may just go away! So is there much benefit to focus on more than 1 or 2 things at the same time?

    Seems to me, the skier on the video was standing too upright and being far too rigid. Once that (“those”?) gets fixed, I would think the “flat edge” would likely disappear, for example?
     
  12. Thread Starter
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    David Chan

    David Chan getting after it! Instructor

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    So you know, most instructors in the course of just teaching, this is exactly what we do.

    When an instructor want's to journey up the certification ladder, the examiners need to know that the candidate really understands what things cause certain symptoms, not just go at trying to fix a symptom..

    For those participating in this exercise, including myself, it helps us experience what we might go through during an exam and helps us learn to use the terminology common to the ski industry and helps us all "speak" the same language. I would hope that we don't use this language with our clients.

    For instance, you will often hear "don't let your inside hand get back" however the real issue may be that the person is steering their turns with their upper body. The cause of the hand back is really a lack of foot steering, and the reason there is a lack of foot steering may be because the client's weight is a little back, limiting the client's ability to actually turn their legs under their hips. In a case like this it might even be an equipment problem of a boot being too big, so the client is struggling to stand up and over their feet.

    The exercise of doing MA, helps us get to the cause rather than the symptom. The reason I put these together hopefully helps our candidates (and myself as a trainer) to learn to articulate in their mind and out loud, what's going on. It helps them think about what forces are in play and how they interact to achieve a specific outcome.

    When someone really begins to understand how all the different parts of the movements interact, a whole world of options begin to present themselves and you now have a lot more ways to correct a specific thing.

    If you have a thinking learner, approaching the solution may be totally different than a feeler/doer. armed with all the extra bits of the puzzle, make it possible to make the lesson much more customized to the student.
     
    Steve and LiquidFeet like this.
  13. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Out on the slopes Instructor

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    I got tired after the fourth spoiler I could not open. I'll bother no more.
     

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