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Philpug

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Got an alignment evaluation today from fitters that have 40+ years of experience. The assessment was my left leg leans in ½ degree. I asked about fore aft. He said the boot comes from the factory like it is and nothing he could do with it. It seemed like I was the one to go to him with what I needed like I feel this going on and I think I need x amount of heal angle, lift or something like that. I thought he would have some way to evaluate fore and aft of me in the boot as a starting point. I also thought a boot check might be done to insure it was to spec like bottom to cuff at zero cant.

The place is in a city not a resort so interactive evaluation not possible other than have something done and go back with feedback. ? I’ll probably just wait until fall and go to Mount Snow.
One leg is off .5*? Unless you are concerned with your position on the U.S. Ski Team, I would't worry about it
 
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trouts2

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@Philpug, Unless you are concerned with your position on the U.S. Ski Team,

Exactly, I want to be ready for when they get around to returning my phone calls. I could start for them at Solden. The slalom course there is not that tough. I’ll be picking up longer skis in the fall at the local mountain ski swap. There is a fair amount of time Between Solden and Kitzbuhel so I could get some runs on the long skis and hammer DH at Kitzbuhel.
 

James

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Sounds like they didn't want to deal with fore/aft. So, there's questions for making your next appointment.

There's way more things that can be off with a boot than lateral alignment. Unless you know you're way off in genetal, that's like icing on the cake.

Shell fit- space behind heel when barefoot in shell without liner. Toes just touching the front. Use a flashlight.
 
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trouts2

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@James Sounds like they didn't want to deal with fore/aft.

Yep. It was a bit weird in that no one was there except me and the two owners. I was there about an hour but the boot fit part was about 5 minutes. The rest was just kibitzing.. There’s a long time between now and Snow opening so I’ll try to bone up on what I can do.

As far as I know I don’t have a boot issue so no input for a fitter. Snow might stuff something in my boot and say try that. The result from that might be I don’t need anything. The boot has adjustable cant so I can muck with that. The boot came with a spoiler. I tried that a day in, day out, day in, day out. I did not notice any difference. My knees are pretty much on the tongues all day.

>>Shell fit- space behind heel
The one finger rule. The front back fit is tighter than the R1 or R3 and just barely works. I use a lighter sock in the Lange.
 

ted

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Below are generalizations YMMV.

Lateral alignment basics-
Make sure cuff adjustment is neutral-
When you flex forward does the center of your knee line up over the big toe or between big toe and toe # 2?
If so you should be ok.

If not does it line up more towards toes 3,4, or 5? Then you are likely bowlegged and need canting thick side out.

If it lines up inside of toe #1, you are likely knock kneed and need cants thick side in.

Fore Aft alignment basics-

When flexed in your boots on a flat floor, where does your knee end up? is it way in front of your big toe?
or is it way behind your big toe? If either of these you probably need to have you fore aft checked?
When clicked into your bindings, doe that change where your knee flex point is? Better or worse. If worse than the binding toe heel differential should be considered.
 
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@ted
I did the plumb bob thing last year but did it again today with and without boots on. The plum bob ends up between the big toe and second toe for both.

>>When flexed in your boots on a flat floor, where does your knee end up? is it way in front of your big toe?

The knee cap goes about 2 inches past the boot toe when fully flexed. The boots are size 336mm 29.5. I’m about 6’1” with long legs so I think the 2 inches probably normal for me. I did that in the living room with the boots on the skis. To fully flex I had to bounce to get deep flex like in a dynamic turn.

>>When clicked into your bindings, does that change where your knee flex point is? Better or worse. If worse than the binding toe heel differential should be considered.

Seems the same in bindings or on flat floor.

I feel balanced when positioned like LeMaster page 165 top drawing (a). That is, lower leg verticle, femur at right angles so like a tuck.
 
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I read that putting quarters under the boot toe then heal may reveal an issue. I tried that with one then two quarters
and did not feel anything when in various positions. Given that I skied in the boots 9 times and did not notice anything, the plumb bob test was ok and the quarters test was ok I think my fit in the boots may be OK. I did side slips on blacks 180 to 180 with no problem which I read is sometimes telling for cant. I skied a few days with and without a spoiler and did not notice a difference. I won't have any issue for the boot fitter at Mount Snow but will talk with him in the fall.
 
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David Chan

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I read that putting quarters under the boot toe then heal may reveal an issue. I tried that with one then two quarters
and did not feel anything when in various positions. Given that I skied in the boots 9 times and did not notice anything, the plumb bob test was ok and the quarters test was ok I think my fit in the boots may be OK. I did side slips on blacks 180 to 180 with no problem which I read is sometimes telling for cant. I skied a few days with and without a spoiler and did not notice a difference. I won't have any issue for the boot fitter at Mount Snow but will talk with him in the fall.

The quarters test, try doing a squat to get your thighs to parallel to the floor. You should feel the difference there.

DC
 

David Chan

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@David Chan "and did not feel anything when in various positions." I did parallel to the floor.

I'm going to repeat the quarter test again.

Sorry I should have been specific.. what you should feel is with toes lifted or heels lifted compared to flat.

One position should feel a little more natural, one might feel like you have to “struggle” to keep your heels on the ground as you get lower (will feel like your heels are lifting) one position might feel like you have to try to flex your ankles and/or extend your arms forward to maintain balance. Sometimes it feels almost like you need to grip with your toes to stay balanced.

Also do you know the delta or ramp angle on your skis? Or if you have multiple skis? This may also affect how this test plays out. If you have 3-4 mm of heel lift on your bindings, you may want to add 3-4mm of heel lift first, then try the quarters test.
 
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@David Chan what you should feel is with toes lifted or heels lifted compared to flat.
I don’t feel those things with quarters (up to 4). My arms were always forward when femurs parallel to the floor because of LeMaster (reference above). No struggling for balance, or off balance, up high to low.

I did the test in the skis and did not notice any difference compared to the floor. I am not aware of any of my skis having a ramp angle.

K2 CTI 80, 2017/2018 Volkl FIS 165 & 2018/2019 Volk FIS 165 both with race plate. They are stock so I thought flat. The boots are 12 degrees.

When flexing I think my kneecap is staying at the same place above the boots. I think my hips are also above the skis in the same place i.e. that a plumb bob off either hip would end up at the same place on the floor with me up high or low.
 

David Chan

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@David Chan what you should feel is with toes lifted or heels lifted compared to flat.
I don’t feel those things with quarters (up to 4). My arms were always forward when femurs parallel to the floor because of LeMaster (reference above). No struggling for balance, or off balance, up high to low.

I did the test in the skis and did not notice any difference compared to the floor. I am not aware of any of my skis having a ramp angle.

K2 CTI 80, 2017/2018 Volkl FIS 165 & 2018/2019 Volk FIS 165 both with race plate. They are stock so I thought flat. The boots are 12 degrees.

When flexing I think my kneecap is staying at the same place above the boots. I think my hips are also above the skis in the same place i.e. that a plumb bob off either hip would end up at the same place on the floor with me up high or low.
Ramp angle or delta is much more binding related, not ski related.

You probably mentioned what boot you are in but I must have missed it some where. Also what’s your height, boot size weight,etc.

Do you happen to know how flexible your ankles are? And I presume your boots are buckled tight and power straps engaged when doing these “tests”.
 

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Ramp angle or delta is much more binding related, not ski related.

You probably mentioned what boot you are in but I must have missed it some where. Also what’s your height, boot size weight,etc.

Do you happen to know how flexible your ankles are? And I presume your boots are buckled tight and power straps engaged when doing these “tests”.

When standing up taller, you should be lightly flexed with your shins against the tongue of the boot. This should put your knee cap just over your toes. As you squat, a few things have to happen. Either you have to actually flex the boot and your ankles in order to keep your COM over the middle of your foot, other wise the movement of your hips rearward will make it hard to not fall over backwards.
 

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Also shell fit should not be a finger measurement, use a known diameter dowel or measuring device.
 
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@David Chan

Height 6’1”, 187lbs. I think my ankle flex is “normal” but have no idea what is considered normal. I can walk and run ok and fully flex ski boots.

The boots are Lange SX 120, lean is 12 degrees

For all stance positions my knee cap is in the right place in relation to the boot. I did not feel off balance fore, aft or laterally on the quarter tests.

The finger for the shell fit was gross ballpark. Regardless the fit is tight and works without need for adjustment.
 

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Because you have a longer BSL (boot sole length) a quarter will only change your ramp ankle slightly. But it should be changing your kneecap over the toe relationship some. Maybe not as much as for someone in a 25.5 boot but if changing the ramp by 4 quarters is not moving your knee cap, fore/aft, you must be doing something different with each position. Btw to measure your ramp or delta on bindings, use a caliper or ruler and measure the height of the toe platform on your binding, and the heel resting platform on your binding. Since you didn’t mention what bindings you are using, we would not be able to guess that.
 

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To measure flexibility of your ankles, sit in a chair you can height adjust. Set the height of the seat so when you rest your bare feet on the ground you can have your shins at 90degrees to the floor, and your thighs parallel to the floor. Then sit with your back at 90degrees to the floor or parallel to your shins. This is what a bootfitter might call 90-90-90.

Then without external help, you lift your forefoot off the ground while keeping your heel on the ground and someone measures the angle created. Average or “normal” range of motion using this test is 11-17 degrees.

Limited range would be anything less than 10 degrees.severely tight can be pain at 90 degrees or not being able to lift their forefoot at all. My friend who has ruptured both of his achilles, is in this camp.. 18+ degrees would be considered hyper mobile. I fall in this camp, at about 23-24 degrees.
 
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@David Chan For the binding ramp:

The measure was taken from bottom of ski to where the boot rests on the binding toe part then heal. The distances were equal.

The binding is Marker Race X-Cell 12

The ankle mobility is 23 degrees and ballpark but close.
 

David Chan

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Ok. So 0 delta. Or no ramp angle in your ski binding setup. That is why it feels the same in and out of your skis. Head factory system bindings have about 3mm of heel lift.

Hyper mobile ankles does make it easier to flex more. Sometimes such that it is harder to stay “upright” For some, it also makes feeling the difference a little less noticeable. Every one is different.
 

EricG

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Trout2 - that’s some awesome ankle mobility. My PT checked mine last week and i’m finally up to ~10 deg.
 

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