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Looking for feedback about back seat(s)

markojp

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Right, COM would not be so far back with closed ankles so a candidate for the list.

Candidate... Hmmmm. It's essential. Any thoughts about boomerangs yet?
 

markojp

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trout, I just don't have time at the moment to get into the fine grain, but I'd suggest that you pick up a copy of Ron Le Masters 'Ultimate Skiing'. It's a good primer for basic movement analysis, not to mention performance skiing in general.

The boomerang.... Can an object's center of mass be outside of the body? The answer is yes, and it still can be accurately ballanced against one's base of support. This is what you see in nearly ALL types of high performance and competitive skiing. Mikaela in transistion is rarely rarely rarely in the back seat even when here femurs are parallel to the ground. Trouble is, we tend to analyse in singular planes at a time. Tracks tell about where, when and how pressure reaches the skis and the skier's intent. Even what appear to me nice railroad track carve turns can have irregularities in shape/width that tell us pretty clearly if the maker of those tracks is precisely balanced against the forces they're experiencing or not. Divergence just after apex and into transition is a key tell to 'back and in'.
 

Tricia

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Seldomski

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Where are you directing pressure? The tail of the ski or the tip? Why and when do you want to do either?

To say another way - when is it GOOD to have your hips behind your heels when skiing? When do you want to pressure the tails of the skis instead of the tip?

I think the 'good back seat' position has more to do with flexion/absorption than trying to pressure the tail of the ski specifically. You still may end up pressuring the tail while you are there, but it's not really why you went there. You went there to absorb/flex between turns - either in moguls or on a groomer.

Flexing in turn transition on both groomers and in moguls may make it look like you are back seat at full flexion. However, you can use the momentum of the upper body to get back in front of the skis as you transition to the next turn.
 

Paul Shifflet

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Good backseat and bad backseat are all about intent. And, not everyone would agree about when it's best to intend what. Since great skiers across different disciplines wouldn’t agree, I don't know how you can call it simple. People have been arguing about this in forums for more than a decade. It's about time there's a dedicated thread for it if there hasn't been one already. In truth, it's so complicated that a full commitment to the subject by a variety of forum members would be sure to end with the thread locked.

Trouts, the excessive analytical nature on Pugski seems to invite posts like yours, but once you delve down deep here, you'll find it's largely a group of folks that have been chatting together online for a long time with their own rules. They aren't broadly analytical, only specifically analytical within the social framework that they've developed. With heavy PSIA influence, L3s and some L2s are encouraged to reiterate PSIA bullet points with that analytical nature that attracts you, while the rest are generally consigned to asking for MA. So, don't let them gaslight you. Your post is right in line with subject matter dealt with regularly. It's no more complicated or analytical than lots of other posts that are supported, just it doesn't fit into the social framework.
 
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Wilhelmson

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So you could pick a person off the street, show them 15 minutes of video, and they would be able to identify back seat skiing without error?
 

James

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"Looking for feedback about backseat(s)"
I saw this in New Posts and figured it was a thread about new car back seats. ogsmile

Are you sitting in it or not? That's about as simple as it gets.
It's not always bad even if you're sitting in it. If one is braking downhill, say in a wedge, or in sticky snow, balanced is aft.

Think about it this way, you're standing in a train, not holding on, you hear/feel the train slowing down. Which way do you move to stay balanced? Aft.
(This gets difficult on subways when the operator is on and off the brakes seemingly for no reason)

And sometimes it's necessary. I recall skiing after taking my L2 skiing, when everyone is waiting for the scores. At Bromley. I'm out in some wooded part, the snow is manky crap. I run into Barbara Marshall, one of the examiners. (Not sure why she's not inside scoring) Anyway, somehow I comment on why do we sit back in this crap. Her response "because it works".
Sometimes you do what you have to do.

I just heard a podcast with Jurij Franko, developer of the shape ski for Elan. In discussing skis, he talked about how you give young kids skis, they will always balance back. His reason was it's the easiest way to turn the ski. Get it to pivot.
As we know, there's consequences. Plus, I think there's other reasons too.

This guy is so backseat there's no chair. He's leaning on a pole behind
him!
The modern guys will go aft too as they come into the turn and the skis are about to slow down in the powder.

But, as the Mongolian guy says, "Turning is totally counter productive. It just slows you down. This isn't rocket science."

Go to 5:30.
 

James

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Your post is right in line with subject matter dealt with regularly. It's no more complicated or analytical than lots of other posts that are supported, just it doesn't fit into the social framework.
This has been discussed like a million times. It's being discussed at some length, in slightly different ways, in the lateral thread right now. People are tired, it's April. Plus, the thread title is bizarre.
Maybe you could offer something he wants to know? There's hardly anyone left posting these days. How about contributing?
 

Doug Briggs

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...

Topic: Are there two types of back seat? (That can be defined.) Can a back seat in some cases be acceptable and distinct from a classic back seat? (If that is possible.)

...

Yes.

Good backseat and bad backseat are all about intent. And, not everyone would agree about when it's best to intend what. Since great skiers across different disciplines wouldn’t agree, I don't know how you can call it simple. People have been arguing about this in forums for more than a decade. It's about time there's a dedicated thread for it if there hasn't been one already. In truth, it's so complicated that a full commitment to the subject by a variety of forum members would be sure to end with the thread locked.

Trouts, the excessive analytical nature on Pugski seems to invite posts like yours, but once you delve down deep here, you'll find it's largely a group of folks that have been chatting together online for a long time with their own rules. They aren't broadly analytical, only specifically analytical within the social framework that they've developed. With heavy PSIA influence, L3s and some L2s are encouraged to reiterate PSIA bullet points with that analytical nature that attracts you, while the rest are generally consigned to asking for MA. So, don't let them gaslight you. Your post is right in line with subject matter dealt with regularly. It's no more complicated or analytical than lots of other posts that are supported, just it doesn't fit into the social framework.

Exactly.

Where are you directing pressure? The tail of the ski or the tip? Why and when do you want to do either?

To say another way - when is it GOOD to have your hips behind your heels when skiing? When do you want to pressure the tails of the skis instead of the tip?

I think the 'good back seat' position has more to do with flexion/absorption than trying to pressure the tail of the ski specifically. You still may end up pressuring the tail while you are there, but it's not really why you went there. You went there to absorb/flex between turns - either in moguls or on a groomer.

Flexing in turn transition on both groomers and in moguls may make it look like you are back seat at full flexion. However, you can use the momentum of the upper body to get back in front of the skis as you transition to the next turn.

This post cuts to the chase. It isn't about body position as much as it is about ski/snow contact. A still shot of someone with their femurs parallel to the snow will result in a range of opinions, not just 'classic' or 'apparent' backseat. How you get to the position with femurs parallel to to the snow and how you move down the hill following the still shot will determine whether the 'backseat', whether 'classic' or 'apparent' was appropriate and / or effective.

Bode has apparently been there. So have Miki and Marcel. Or have they? A cross under transition looks a lot like back seat. What really matters is what the skis are doing and where the skier ends up over his skis in the next moments. Even the apparent back seat could reveal pressure on the tails. It is sometimes referred to as 'jetting' the ski. What happens in the next frame or two will tell whether it is jetting or not. I know I've used the classic backseat to recover from being 'squated' or thrown back in a turn. In a race it could be the right thing to do; the difference between winning or losing or even finishing. It is also a classic position for

'Back seat' in a cross under transition is accepted good technique and isn't really being in the back seat..

'Back seat' is bad, or classic (?), when it is all you know or all you do. This is also referred to as tail-gunning. It is obviated by the flex of the skis onto the tails and the air under the tips from the boot forward. Note, you can't drive from the backseat.

It is the moments before and after the 'back seat' position that help clarify 'classic' or 'apparent', as well as the ski's relationship to the snow.
 
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trouts2

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@markojp I just don't have time at the moment to get into the fine grain

No problem. If you are inclined and find the time soon or over the next several months update the thread. I’ll get a notification and be interested to read it.

@markojp RE: the boomerang & COM. The answer is yes, and it still can be accurately ballanced against one's base of support. This is what you see in nearly ALL types of high performance and competitive skiing.

I think you are saying the COM is outside of the body during some phases of turns or transition. Interesting, when, what part of a turn?

Not applied to what you have mentioned; there seems to be some different usage of COM often. At times the reference seems to be “where the weight is” indicating a single static place on the body versus the physics version of COM which is moving around during a turn. For a Fosbury Flop the COM is not on the body. The COM is below the bar while the inverted U body is stomach over the bar with shoulders & head on one side of the bar & legs on the other. During a ski turn the COM would move around but when would it be outside the body?

@Tricia RE: the Barnes Infinity Move video & a second one on page 4 of the Infinity Move thread.

The videos just example COM in a generalized broad view of relative speed and position to the feet versus a real time place on the body of inside or outside. The ball catch part is example not physical.

@Seldomski I think your questions may be rhetorical versus asking me. I think you are asking to frame your answer which was:

@Seldomski Flexing in turn transition on both groomers and in moguls may make it look like you are back seat at full flexion. However, you can use the momentum of the upper body to get back in front of the skis as you transition to the next turn.

The momentum part seems to be an essential component of all apparent back seats for the reason you give. Maybe a better word would be dynamic back seat as it seems to connote being ok, intended.

@Seldomski I think the 'good back seat' position has more to do with flexion/absorption than trying to pressure the tail of the ski specifically. You still may end up pressuring the tail while you are there, but it's not really why you went there. You went there to absorb/flex between turns - either in moguls or on a groomer.

Warren Witherell puts it this way in, “How The Racers Ski”, while expressing his displeasure of what was at the time (around 1972) “S turns”, “avalement” & other forms that Witherell says “often ending them with back leverage”.

He footnotes his displeasure with “back seat” in a paragraph and qualifies it like this:

“It must be clear the “sitting back” (an extreme body position) and “using back leverage” (possible from a

well-balanced stance) are two very different things. The skiing public, misled by countless magazine articles and photos, has failed to understand this important distinction.”

At various places in the book describes the use of “tail engagement” but never a specific relation to a “defined” back seat. He does mention back leverage at turn exit but that depends on the turn terrain and other mechanics of the turn. He talks about training specifically for use forward, neutral and back leverage

that are to be used whenever a situation arises to stay balanced.

The following is separate from the original purpose of the post.

@Seldomski “but it’s not really why you went there. You went there to absorb/flex between turns”.

I take that as meaning the skier is reacting to a current fleeting situation they handle cleanly but not meaning they overcame a flaw. I think Witherell ok’s it with “possible from a well-balanced stance”. It was just using an element of their bag of capabilities. He talks about skiing generally as each turn being different and calling on various skills they may use at one gate and not another.

I doubt that any WC racer when reviewing a course would turn to their coach and say, “at this pin I’m going to dynamically back seat this one" or even think it.

I think the “why you went there” is probably never planned but a reaction and probably what you think.
 

Seldomski

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@Seldomski I think your questions may be rhetorical versus asking me

Yep, I did mean this as rhetorical. In writing my post, I actually typed out and deleted things several times until I asked myself that question. It seemed to help clarify my thoughts. When you are statically balanced aft, it greatly reduces your ability to use the tip edges to start a turn. You can cheat by pivoting to start turns since the tips are in the air, but this does not work in all types of snow.

I think the overall question you are posing about "what exactly is the (bad) back seat?" is very useful. I would say that the comment I hear most often in lessons (to myself and others) and movement analysis on this website has to do with people being too far aft or 'skiing in the back seat.' I think there is a lot of confusion about what this means among students. And there seems to be a failure to fix it from instructors. So there is something broken here in the communication.

This question is not rhetorical: How did you learn to ski? You seem to be approaching things from a different mindset which I think this forum could use from time to time IMHO.
 

James

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@trouts2 -, an intetesting video.
Mikaela stops short of talking about using the tail. Probably because it would lead to a rash of tail sitters. Like Warren Witherell complained about.
As I understand it, magazines and newsapers did overpublish shots of racers on the tails leading to public thought that was the technique. Even though it wasn't. Sort of. (See below and Pfeiffer)

Hot doggers really sat back going up a bump on purpose to get the tips in the air.
There are many who consider that era of bump skiing more fun to watch than today's comps.

But, she uses the tail. I doubt it's always intentional, but she definitely intentionally uses it. In other words, I don't think it's just a recovery move. The tail is fast. And it can actually be quick to get oneself to the other side, pivot the skis and get fore again.

One can also use the the tail by straightening the leg and pressuring the rear of the boot due to forward lean of the boot.

Mikaela at 2:00. Her last 2 turns are a good example of very aft to fore by pivot and movement downhill. The 2nd to last she overshoots but still pulls it off.

You'll be interested in this response by Doug Pfeiffer in Skiing Heritage back in 2002. Fascinating. It was in response to aStu Campbell article on Avalement.
IMG_6352.jpg

https://books.google.com/books?id=x1gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg

http://www.skimuseum.ca/bios/Pfeiffer_Doug.pdf
Edit:
Here's the Su Campbell article
https://books.google.com/books?id=z1gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA22&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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trouts2

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@Seldomski

Yes, a lot of confusion so I thought it useful to get more clarity with separating the two with words. Words to denote and words to define so the two types and list for each.

You are well aware of discussions of back seat will go nowhere or sideways. It is my intention to be better armed to coral and focus the topic so the post. As you exampled yourself about writing out your thoughts, thinking about something is hardly ever as clear as speaking it out or writing it down.


@Seldomski This question is not rhetorical: How did you learn to ski?

Self taught for the first several years and sucked. I quit for many years and now into the fifth year of skiing again. The biggest help of all inputs was tripping onto Mount Snow Race Academy videos two seasons ago. They changed everything for me. The coach takes videos of junior races U10’s and up. They ski gates and freeskiing in slalom or GS style. He posts them on Youtube for the kids to review. He plays each video at full speed then talks through the video at slow speed. He uses The Coaches Eye for stop action, pens in arrows point to out form flaws and talks through the corrections. You know how bad descriptions can be. The coach has to be fairly clear for the kids and in so clear enough for me. He does not give complete or full explanations of various flaws all the time. He may talk about a V issue in one way to one kid and another aspect of V in another video. Over many videos I get a full picture. I’ve watched hundreds of their videos.

He posts videos of the coaches in gates and freeskiing for the kids. He does the same thing, full speed, slow and talks through them. He does a few of WC racers in the same way. At times he posts a U12 in one frame and a coach beside it and plays them frame by frame with “look at Stallion, that’s where we want our arms to be”. “Look at his shins and back angle”, he’ll draw lines on both. He’ll stop action at the apex of a turn for both skiers and comment on hip and shoulders, leg length comparing one to the other. All good stuff and clear.

The kids are great freeskiers. Over time I realized what he was teaching them was basic to all skiing. Since then I have focused on race form in as much detail as I can and of course have become a Shiffrin worshiper. One of the finest videos I have seen, you and most on Pug have seen. It is her at LoveLand in a white suit doing a relaxed slalom training run followed down by a drone.
 

geepers

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I just heard a podcast with Jurij Franko, developer of the shape ski for Elan. In discussing skis, he talked about how you give young kids skis, they will always balance back. His reason was it's the easiest way to turn the ski. Get it to pivot.

Jurij clarifies this bit about kids leaning back to create instability in a wedge.
 

James

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Jurij clarifies this bit about kids leaning back to create instability in a wedge.
Good point. Yes, he does. So you've got braking present. They wouldn't be able to bslance close yet.

Did you get his point about bendind and stiffness? I got that you can just stand and bend it and it's sidecut, but stffness def matters skiing.
 

Tony S

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At my local mountain there is a group of us that are into the technical side. We ski there often, see each other ski, critique each other and suggest pointers. The call out of a back seat at times is fuzzy.

Are y'all racing? If so, then you'll know pretty quick who's in the back seat by the results. If not, you should be, to have some ground underneath the admittedly enjoyable blather. Plus what Grump said about "bumps don't lie."
 

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