Looking for feedback about back seat(s)

[trouts2]

This post is to get feedback on what it asks about. The goal is to get more a developed definition or reasoned rejection. It applies mostly to dynamic carved turns and for clarity might be good to avoid considerations for powder and moguls.



Topic: Are there two types of back seat? (That can be defined.) Can a back seat in some cases be acceptable and distinct from a classic back seat? (If that is possible.)

Maybe there is the following:

1. There is a real back seat.
2. There is an apparent back seat looks like a back seat but not similar to a classic back seat.

The overall consideration is entering, during and exiting a turn or transition especially the exit and float part of transition.

The following tried to rough out the difference in both by listing what happened during a classic back seat and an apparent back seat. There may be overlap or conflict between the two. The list is an attempt to distinguish the two but ballpark versus precise. The goal is to get feedback, better clarity of points or points rejected/dismissed.
Force is used below but you could substitute whatever you feel comfortable with.

Position 1, Classical back seat;

A back seat has some common elements that may occur in total or part during a classical back seat. Those are roughly the following:

The lower calf is near or against the back of the boot.

The shins are not pressing the tongue of the boot.

The body (COM) is towards the back, in back of the boots or over the tails.

The femurs are fairly parallel to the skis.

The force on the skis is in part toward the tails.

The force on the skis is not mostly down into the skis.

The force to the front and middle of the skis is less than expected for the place, that is for where it is happening.

The hands are generally higher than proper.

The shoulders are likely over the back of the boot or further back.

Although the COM is traveling downhill or in transition across the hill the COM is momentarily slower than the boots.

Proper balance is interrupted in the classic back seat.

There is no forward momentum that will push the body(COM) out of the back seat.

Can be gotten out of by sliding the legs back which in this case is a not a standard move but a correction for a flaw (the back seat).


Position 2, Apparent back seat;

The calf is not on the back of the boot.

The shins are pressing the tongue of the boot.

The body (COM) is in the same place as a classic back seat.

The femurs are the same as a classic back seat.

There is no force toward the tails so unlike a classic back seat.

The force is mostly down into the skis so unlike a classic back seat.

The force to the front and middle of the skis is as expected for the place so unlike a classic back seat.

The hands are proper for where in the turn or transition.

The shoulders are more forward than a classic back seat.

The COM is not slowed momentarily slower than the boots. That is the forward momentum of the COM is not pushed back, delayed but gets back smoothly without force.

Proper balance is not interrupted in an apparent back seat.

The classic back seat happens from a mistake of some sort and can happen at any time in the turn or transition places mentioned above.

Getting out of an apparent back seat is not done by sliding the boots back. There is momentum on the body(COM) that will most often carry the body forward into a stacked position.

The apparent back seat is from the dynamics at play in a turn or transition creating an in balance position momentarily with the skier in balanced control.

The apparent back seat if part of an integrated fluid motion versus a flaw.

The apparent back seat is common in turn end exits going into transitions or at sometimes approximately half way in transition when the skier is partly rising, mostly flexing and skis about to cross under the skier. The skiers COM momentum is in the direction of travel without delay as in the classic back seat. The momentum of the COM brings the body back into better stacking versus moving the feet back. There is no need to strain midsection muscles to regain position as often happens with a classic back seat.

When in the middle of a turn or slightly past the apex an apparent back seat can happen but very different than the classic back seat. The shins are in the boot tongue, the force is forward and down, the COM may be back but without momentum or force and generally moving forward at the rate expected for the turn location. The apparent back seat has no negative effect on balance or speed or hindrance from any necessity to correct a flaw. The apparent back seat is fleeting event and out of within a few 10ths of a second.

 

[geepers]

Seems a complex criteria. Why not define #1 as the skier supporting themselves with their quads?

 

[Tricia]

Wow, this seems like an overly complicated analysis of something that is really simple.

 

[Mike Thomas]

Wow, this seems like an overly complicated analysis of something that is really simple.

Are you new around here? Welcome!

 

[trouts2]

[QUOTE="geepers, [/QUOTE]

From the way your post reads your quads suggestion would replace all of list 1.

A skier could make say three turns and at some places in the run be on their quads with no back seat at all through the run. Quads alone would not define enough about what was going on when a possible back seat is happening.

 

[trouts2]

[QUOTE="Tricia[/QUOTE]

You may trivialize the post and that is ok. I posted to ask for assistance. But since you say the issue is "really simple" then maybe you could point out where I have gone wrong. Which points are unnecessary to make the distinction less complex? Maybe you fell there is no distinction. Your post is dismissive and vague but if you could post why you think it simple. It would be a help to a topic that perplexes me.

To be frank, I'm very surprised to see such a response from an Admin.

 

[ADKmel]

Guess I"m another Not understanding what you are looking for here? Not sure why you need to examine being in the back seat at such great length?

You're in it or you're not seems simple to me.

Smooth skiing is about your body constantly adjusting and fine tuning flex in your ankles, knees, hip joint and COM. feet, hands, head, standing tall, getting small, body separation a still upper body and more. Smooth experienced skiers are constantly making adjustments fine tuning their body positions. Sure, sometimes you may feel your calves on the back of the boot but doesn't mean you're in the back seat.

Skiing is not just stand like this and it all works. Don't forget every human is different anatomically- throw that into your mix along with time on skis, and the skis you're on, and the boots stiff or soft. Some skis have a huge "sweet spot" you can sit and ski in the back seat and not get spanked others will spank you hard.

Back seat skiing in a dynamic turn? Dynamic turns to me mean speed and being in the back seat at speed YIKES- Try it, bet you'll find yourself Swimming to get forward as you finish your turn- if you are indeed doing a dynamic turn and finishing your turns. If you're in the backseat in a dynamic turn, I'll bet you'll be late for the next turn, so that turn will be less dynamic as you try to get forward. You'll feel them getting away from you and you'll have to make corrections to get forward resulting in slowing your speed to correct no more dynamic turn.

You don't want to talk about bumps and powder? That's where being comfortable in the back seat can be a move that works to correct/adjust your position OR depending on slope/pitch bump size depth of powder this too can seriously launch you.

Your thread Reminds me of a ski instructor joke: "How many instructors to teach a turn?" 40- One to demo and 39 to analyze it"

Welcome to the forum. Browse the instruction thread maybe there you'll find what your looking for.

 

[trouts2]

@ADKmel Welcome to the forum. Browse the instruction thread maybe there you'll find what your looking for.

Thank you for the welcome. I have been a reader of the site for some time. I did search this site and others for more clarity on the topic and found a number of helpful pieces and parts but nothing unified or specific to the post topic. The ski school area is an unusual separation for a forum and very interesting.

>>>You're in it or you're not seems simple to me.

Yes, in a sense especially if a classic back seat. The skier is in trouble and needing a fix adjustment. For an apparent back seat there is no issue due to being part of a style.

>>> I"m another Not understanding what you are looking for here? Not sure why you need to examine >>>being in the back seat at such great length?
Just trying to get clarity between the two “possible” types. The length of both types stems from an attempt to define it to myself. I listed the points to separate the two for clarity and note what ground had been covered to avoid comments that would mention like, “what about this”. I tried to cover those in advance. So the thinking was if I listed them they could be gone through and supported or dismissed and help separate and define the two. The attempt was to make it easier.

I realize that the topic would be of very limited interest to many and get dumped on by some. My target is a limited few on Pug that I feel are highly qualified and even if not specifically interested in the topic would post to help qualify it in its parts or whole one way or another, positive or negative. Both would be interesting to me.

>>>Smooth skiing is about your body constantly adjusting and fine tuning flex in your ankles, knees, hip >>>joint and COM. feet, hands, head, standing tall, getting small, body separation a still upper body and >>>more. Smooth experienced skiers are constantly making adjustments fine tuning their body >>>positions. Sure, sometimes you may feel your calves on the back of the boot but doesn't mean >>>you're in the back seat.

Exactly. The skier might be considered in the classic back seat. I’m trying to clarify that with the distinction of classic to apparent. I tried to list the elements that distinguish one from the other.

>>>Skiing is not just stand like this and it all works. Don't forget every human is different anatomically- >>>throw that into your mix along with time on skis, and the skis you're on, and the boots stiff or soft. >>>Some skis have a huge "sweet spot" you can sit and ski in the back seat and not get spanked others >>>will spank you hard.

I did not think to qualify things like the above. The consideration would be the skier with “proper gear”. I also should have qualified I was manly thinking about this in terms of slalom and GS so not superG, downhill, powder or moguls. Powder and moguls have their own dynamics and I mentioned discounting them because of that.

>>>Back seat skiing in a dynamic turn? Dynamic turns to me mean speed and being in the back seat at >>>speed YIKES- Try it, bet you'll find yourself Swimming to get forward as you finish your turn- if you >>>are indeed doing a dynamic turn and finishing your turns. If you're in the backseat in a dynamic turn, >>>I'll bet you'll be late for the next turn, so that turn will be less dynamic as you try to get forward. >>>You'll feel them getting away from you and you'll have to make corrections to get forward resulting >>>in slowing your speed to correct no more dynamic turn.

So that would be the classic back seat and correction needed. I’m not sure but you may be advocating that a back seat is never possible to be ok, intended as the result of style versus flaw. I was hoping that someone that saw apparent back seat as never possible could go down the list of apparent back seat and explain where I went wrong in my listing for it. I am currently an advocate of the distinction but could be easily convinced otherwise with reasoned criticism.

>>>Your thread Reminds me of a ski instructor joke: "How many instructors to teach a turn?" 40- One to >>>demo and 39 to analyze it"

Never heard that one but like it. The post is not a troll post, OCD – at least to me, and the depth of very limited interest to most.

 

[skix]

Other threads have shown numerous examples of professional racers in transition looking like they are in the back-seat. Several site regulars, including instructors, point out in those threads that even though the majority of the racers mass is rear of midline that they aren't actually doing back-seat skiing. I don't think it's obvious at all to non instructors and/or intermediate skiers how to tell the difference between acceptable "back-seat" and dysfunctional back-seat. I'd guess the OP wants to know how to tell the difference. Particularly since telling the difference is very difficult using still photos given that the racers are relying on momentum and the different paths of COM and feet to bring them back forward.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@trouts2, are you looking for a way to distinguish between these two almost identical crouched (low) positions?

(a) crouched low body, with the skier's weight hovering mostly behind the feet, leaving very little weight on the front of the ski
(b) crouched low body, with the skier's weight "centered," directing a bit more weight on the longer front of the ski than on the shorter back of the ski

 

[Tricia]

Using two pictures of me, so as not to pick on anyone else.
In this shot, I am clearly in the back seat, and I knew it.

Here, I'm in the middle of the transition, not in the back seat but to an onlooker it may seem I'm in the back seat.
Is this what you're getting at?

Here is a shot where I'm clearly stacked over my skis.

 

[cantunamunch]

@trouts2, are you looking for a way to distinguish between these two almost identical crouched (low) positions?

(a) crouched low body, with the skier's weight hovering mostly behind the feet, leaving very little weight on the front of the ski
(b) crouched low body, with the skier's weight "centered," directing a bit more weight on the longer front of the ski than on the shorter back of the ski

He already has - he phrased it as the net direction of pressure inside the boot. But yes, that is how I read it.

for a skater part (a) dumps you on your bum part (b) is the only way to keep up with anyone fast.

 

[markojp]

Wow, this seems like an overly complicated analysis of something that is really simple.

Good lord, no kidding.... makes us want to turn in our pins.

For the OP, where is the center of mass in a bommerang at rest? And in motion?

 

[markojp]

@trouts2, are you looking for a way to distinguish between these two almost identical crouched (low) positions?

(a) crouched low body, with the skier's weight hovering mostly behind the feet, leaving very little weight on the front of the ski
(b) crouched low body, with the skier's weight "centered," directing a bit more weight on the longer front of the ski than on the shorter back of the ski

... and is the ankle open or closed?

 

[KingGrump]

The goal is to get feedback, better clarity of points or points rejected/dismissed.

Disclaimer: IANAI (I am not an instructor), Just a short fat old dude that likes to fall down the hill in a semi controlled fashion.

I know you don't want to talk about bumps and powder. Groomer, bumps, trees, powder, etc... They are all the same. The distinction is in your mind and nowhere else.
If you really want feed back. Immediate feed back about sitting back. Take a pair of skis into the bumps. Don't have to ski them like te WC comp guys. Just simple slow rec skiing skiing will geet you immediate and direct feed back your COM / BOS relationship. The bumps don't lie.

Feel rather than think. My suggestion is to put down the grab a pair of ski and get some real time feed back.

 

[trouts2]

@skix Your post covers the exactly issue I’m after, especially with the pros as you mention. In a still it is very difficult to tell the difference. When you go through videos you can see the back seat but also the before and after. Sometimes it looks fine and at others the struggle to recover is obvious. Over time I began to think I’m seeing two types, one ok the other not. As you mention in some discussions people will clarify what they are seeing but I’ve never seen terms defined. I’m trying to rough out definitions.

At my local mountain there is a group of us that are into the technical side. We ski there often, see each other ski, critique each other and suggest pointers. The call out of a back seat at times is fuzzy. When at times applied to me I wonder if they saw me when I was tired and sloppy or a rare time when I’m on the money. I said I’m trying to rough out definitions. That is mainly for group above so we can get better language between us. I’ve suggested the classic back seat and apparent back seat to one of the crew that has a very large understanding of WC form. He likes the distinction so I’m working on it and thought Pug Ski School a good place to flush it out more.

 

[trouts2]

@trouts2, are you looking for a way to distinguish between these two almost identical crouched (low) positions?

Yes, those positions probably most often, but higher also although probably much tougher to pull off a clean back seat. I'd have to think about high more.

These are good. Adding a few more slots on the list specifically with crouched low body could make things clearer.

(a) crouched low body, with the skier's weight hovering mostly behind the feet, leaving very little weight on the front of the ski
(b) crouched low body, with the skier's weight "centered," directing a bit more weight on the longer front of the ski than on the shorter back of the ski

 

[trouts2]

... and is the ankle open or closed?

Right, COM would not be so far back with closed ankles so a candidate for the list.

 

[trouts2]

[QUOTE="Tricia ]
Is this what you're getting at?[/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly.

 

[markojp]

Show me tracks in the snow, and we'll see if you're in the back seat or not.