Long skidding turns on steeper trails

[Phaceplanter]

This is my 4th year of skiing, and I find myself more on the steeper blues and single black diamond trails. I bought my first pair of boots last year, and first pair of skis this year. I'm 48, 5'9, 165#s.

When going down steeper terrain, I will make long skidding turns. I've mostly gotten past the skid jump sideways so I don't lose control stage, to being ok with accelerating downhill and trusting my boots and skis are going to turn when I need them to. However, after turn initiation on steeper terrain, I will skid through most of my turn until close to the end and before starting my next turn, resulting in long downhill turns.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm trying to let the skis ride out through a turn and not force a shorter turn before they seem ready. However, I feel like they should be getting on edge sooner and not skidding so much, so makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. Mind you, I'm not expecting to make short, technical carving turns with the boots/skis I have, and with the skill level I possess, but I would like to feel like I'm on edge sooner after turn initiation.

The skis I bought were Salomon QST 85 All mountain skis. I chose them for the lower price and to make it easier for me to ski on more challenging terrain and I definitely think it's done that. I also chose longer skis than I've ever skied before - 169 cm, and I think that's helped my confidence and stability at speed. The edges are still sharp.

The boots I bought last year are 2016 Nordica N3 NXT, 26.5 length. I had some regret after skiing in them a couple times, thinking they were too big, and was advised by a prominent pugski member to trade them in. I looked into that at the start of this year, where I purchased the boots, but selection was slim and I ended up getting a thicker liner at the shop to fill in and give me a tighter fit. They did that, but now I'm wondering if the flex is too low and I have to flex too much on steeper terrain to turn like I want to.

 

[CalG]

Angulation. tuck that down hill hand into your hip! It's like carrying a heavy piece of luggage. Make those edges BITE!

Then, get off the old turn when it quits being good for you. Hanging on to a sour turn is the essence of long skidded turns. They are just not rewarding.

 

[pchewn]

Those Salomon QST 85's are great skis for carving slower short-radius turns. I suggest you try slowing down and then the ski can carve rather than skid. Also: the length of the skis at 169cm may be a bit short -- and again will be more suitable for slow short-radius turns rather than long fast GS type turns. Try (really try) carving on gentler runs, slower speeds, better/softer snow and then try it on harder snow/faster speed/steeper runs.

 

[Mike King]

Video is really required to fruitfully comment.

 

[François Pugh]

It sounds like you need to tip your skis onto a higher angle. Maybe more angulation will help your do that. Try dragging your outside pole (uphill to start) on the snow.

 

[PinnacleJim]

I am about your size ( a little shorter and a few pounds lighter). Ski length is what I would pick for that ski. Boots are a bit soft (90 flex) but not terrible. So other than the boots being a bit large, I don't see any equipment issues. Carving down steep(er) slopes is just something that is going to take some time. Once you start skidding, it's pretty much impossible to get back to a carve. You don't say where you are skiing. Here in the east, the steeper trails are usually slicker than the easier ones and get skied off earlier in the day, making carved turns more difficult.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

You need to start engaging the edges earlier in the turn. Review the get over it drill:

 

[Marcus Carvey]

Mind you, I'm not expecting to make short, technical carving turns with the boots/skis I have, and with the skill level I possess, but I would like to feel like I'm on edge sooner after turn initiation.

I could have written this same exact post when I'd been skiing for 3-5 years. I ended up taking a lesson from a very good instructor and finding out that I had other problems I wasn't even aware of that needed to be corrected before I could even think about "being on edge sooner". Obviously I can't tell if that's your situation, but I'd strongly recommend taking at least a half-day private lesson from an L3 instructor. Seriously, make sure you ask for L3. I'm sure there are good L1/L2 teachers out there, but how to find them? Even better, ask for a teacher recommendation in your area here.

It won't be cheap but it'll could be the most valuable skiing investment you'll make.

 

[Doby Man]

Video is really required to fruitfully comment.

Mike, you are absolutely correct, and probably why any fruit that does make it onto these threads is rotten by page 5. However, this may be the case for every technical advice thread here. Between people's conception of what is really happening, individualized frame of references, language habits, semantics, ego and anonymity, it is likely that the lack of “factual” video is ultimately debasing every attempt made. That said, most or all struggling intermediate and advanced skiers are very likely struggling due to a simple and straightforward lack of fundamental properties in a manner that can bridge the gap of the above issues around giving advice. In that light, you have given a lot of good advice on here.

OP: Chances are that, if you are performing “long” skidded turns on the steeps at your ability level, a long turn is not what you are looking for. “Waiting” for when the ski seems ready to turn does not sound like a good thing. Waiting (itself) for anything to happen while skiing could be a cause of bad timing in movements that are meant to stream from one to the next. Skidding or brushing a long turn in a well managed, smooth, rhythmic and progressive way is typically a higher level skill than that of a fourth year skier. It is likely that the long skidded turns are due to faulty issues and not one of choice. Following suit with my above statement, learning to manage your CoM over your BoS in a manner that allows you to pressure the correct ski, in the correct place at the correct time will solve the fundamental base from which all issues that arise such as the OP’s. As a matter of fact, much of the (good) advice that can be given that pertains to skills that reside above these fundamentals in the skills pyramid will not only go to waste but can also contribute to difficulties in advancing forward. And, as per usual, identifying, correcting, developing and ingraining these fundamental movements on easy terrain before they are refined on the steeps is the path to take.

Now that you are probably somewhere around the intermediate level, it is time to start considering the probability that you may be ingraining faulty motor patterns at some level. To correct current circumstances, clear the path of ongoing development and raise the ceiling of future dev, now is the time to start cleaning up some of these issues with a basic set of recommended drills. YouTube is a treasure trove of resources in this area. The longer you wait to do this, the more difficult this project will become and the inclination there will be to do so. And, yes, continue to keep working on accessing the right equipment, boots in particular, which has been a journey in of itself for all those who have become experts.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

What DM said plus, eyes-on by a competent instructor.

 

[Phaceplanter]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm at Perfect North in Indiana - I live in N. Ky. They do have plenty of instructors out there, not sure about L3 ones.

I know when turning, I've mostly focusing on my upper body staying forward, while pushing into the boot with my shin first and thinking of getting on the edge after, so from what I'm reading here and on other threads, maybe focusing pushing down on the inside edge with my boot, with the ankle, and not so much forward with the shin.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm at Perfect North in Indiana - I live in N. Ky. They do have plenty of instructors out there, not sure about L3 ones.

I know when turning, I've mostly focusing on my upper body staying forward, while pushing into the boot with my shin first and thinking of getting on the edge after, so from what I'm reading here and on other threads, maybe focusing pushing down on the inside edge with my boot, with the ankle, and not so much forward with the shin.

Rather than push down on the inside edge (which makes that leg stiffen), try raising the little toe side of the foot inside the boot.

 

[geepers]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm at Perfect North in Indiana - I live in N. Ky. They do have plenty of instructors out there, not sure about L3 ones.

I know when turning, I've mostly focusing on my upper body staying forward, while pushing into the boot with my shin first and thinking of getting on the edge after, so from what I'm reading here and on other threads, maybe focusing pushing down on the inside edge with my boot, with the ankle, and not so much forward with the shin.

A question... are you staying forward throughout the turn? Or bringing your CoM back to middle of ski by the apex and further back to work the tails towards the end?

 

[rocdoc]

You need to start engaging the edges earlier in the turn. Review the get over it drill:

That's a really cool drill, thanks for sharing

 

[François Pugh]

Think about it this way: when you are traversing a steep run you are on your uphill edges. Your skis are at a steep angle to the hill. Before you can begin to tip them into the turn (downhill) you need to untip the skis by a steep angle to bring them flat to the hill, then you need to tip them.

At the top of the turn the steep hill takes away from your tipping angle, making the angle of your skis to the hill less. Once you are at the bottom of the turn the steep hill adds to your tipping angle, making the angle between your skis and the hill greater.

Most likely you are lacking in balance and angulation, and you don't want to lean down the hill; at your level you are likely inclining too much without angulation enough and not wanting to lean too far into the turn is a good thing.

Work on balancing on the inside edge of the outside (starts uphill for most turns) ski, and angulate - move your upper body uphill as you move your lower body downhill to facilitate tipping the skis into the turn.

 

[Ken_R]

This is my 4th year of skiing, and I find myself more on the steeper blues and single black diamond trails. I bought my first pair of boots last year, and first pair of skis this year. I'm 48, 5'9, 165#s.

When going down steeper terrain, I will make long skidding turns. I've mostly gotten past the skid jump sideways so I don't lose control stage, to being ok with accelerating downhill and trusting my boots and skis are going to turn when I need them to. However, after turn initiation on steeper terrain, I will skid through most of my turn until close to the end and before starting my next turn, resulting in long downhill turns.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm trying to let the skis ride out through a turn and not force a shorter turn before they seem ready. However, I feel like they should be getting on edge sooner and not skidding so much, so makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. Mind you, I'm not expecting to make short, technical carving turns with the boots/skis I have, and with the skill level I possess, but I would like to feel like I'm on edge sooner after turn initiation.

The skis I bought were Salomon QST 85 All mountain skis. I chose them for the lower price and to make it easier for me to ski on more challenging terrain and I definitely think it's done that. I also chose longer skis than I've ever skied before - 169 cm, and I think that's helped my confidence and stability at speed. The edges are still sharp.

The boots I bought last year are 2016 Nordica N3 NXT, 26.5 length. I had some regret after skiing in them a couple times, thinking they were too big, and was advised by a prominent pugski member to trade them in. I looked into that at the start of this year, where I purchased the boots, but selection was slim and I ended up getting a thicker liner at the shop to fill in and give me a tighter fit. They did that, but now I'm wondering if the flex is too low and I have to flex too much on steeper terrain to turn like I want to.

I find that on steeper slopes my skis have more bite

A) you are on the wrong skis , B) the skis need tuning and/or C) you need to improve your technique. Might be a bit of all three.

 

[Fuller]

Your skis and boots may or may not be ideal but if you are like most of the low to middle level intermediates we all see skidding down the mountain your issues invariably go back to mastering these 4 skills:

You may think your balanced fore and aft but you're not. In my first lesson the instructor wanted me to lift the tail of the inside ski as I was turning. I couldn't do it because I would keep falling back and relying on having two skis in the snow for balance. Start on an almost flat trail and stay there all morning until you feel comfortable on one ski at a time. Let the tip of the inside ski brush the snow for balance. You will always fall to the inside (big toe) edge but you can control the radius of the turn as you get comfortable. Use the right ski to turn left and vice versa. Don't worry about using the little toe edge, that really is another level. I also think the up and over drill is great but stick with the basics first.

You may think your upper body is facing the fall line but I'd bet your shoulders are swinging around ahead of your skis. You can ski for years, having fun the whole time and never know the reality of how you actually turn. Pivot slip drills are your friend here but they can be done incorrectly. Don't waste your time embedding the wrong movements. Get an instructor or take some video of the drill and the Pugski crew will be happy to lend a hand (constructively of course).

Your stance is probably too wide which is either a cause or an effect of keeping too much weight on your inside ski. Cure one and the other will wither and die or work on them both for maximum improvement.

When you can do all three of these skills it's time to blend them into a turn where you can create some higher edge angles and tackle the steeper trails. That requires angulation instead of banking into your turn. There are many drills to promote angulation, an easy one is a simple down hill pole drag while your shoulders are square with the fall line.

 

[Phaceplanter]

I was out there last night. Lots of mounds of fresh new snow thanks to the arctic vortex. I haven't skied on high quality fresh snow much, so I noticed it revealing my flaws, like some of the ones mentioned. I was carving pretty well on the easier blues, but yeah I was twisting my upper body on the steeper trails. I went to the lodge shop and had a bootfitter check my boot fit and as some of you may have guessed, I can't blame my boots. Rather than try and sell me new boots, he recommended a lesson as well, so I'll look into that.

On another note my ten year old found what looked like a narrow walking path through some thick trees from one trail to the next one over that he skied through, when I wasn't looking. One that I never would have even seen had he not showed me where it was, so I do have a future expert glade skier on my hands! Might need help with that too, but that's another thread.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Good comments, great "get over it" video from a "pretty damn good" balanced skier.

Phaceplanter, you are at a stage of your skiing where you need some help. The Level 3 lesson would be good for you. Ask around and find out the right instructor before you commit the money. Almost all of the comments are good. I am 76 yrs and have been skiing for 50 yrs and took a lesson last week and we worked on balance and my turn initiation changed (for the good). Skiing is a life long adventure and obviously you want to get better. Let someone help you along the path before you get too many bad habits.

 

[James]

When going down steeper terrain, I will make long skidding turns. I've mostly gotten past the skid jump sideways so I don't lose control stage,

That's the part that screams fundamental problems. We could pontificate for 10 pgs, and likely will, but it won't make much difference. Video of a couple turns where you're not the size of an ant in a picture frame is needed.
Essentially, you're more comfortable with going downhill- a very good thing, but are likely doing the same things. It needs to be worked on in easier terrain. It's all about release.