Localism

[fatbob]

Prompted by VR and assorted Ikon threads over time I wonder if we should try to bottom out the perspectives on Locals v Tourists, "new" passholders v longstanding passholders etc etc.

It strikes me that there is always lots of griping when there is any change associated with ski hills from takeovers to new lifts, terrain decisions, infrastructure etc. And that a standard refrain is "the locals won't be happy".

A couple of examples

- The Save Olympic Valley movement from the moment Nancy sold Squaw out to KSL. Opposing frills like the waterpark, the interconnect gondola and the loss of car parking

- The fuss this year at places like Deer Valley and JH about the "Ikon effect". To the extent that some even very recent locals were up in arms about having more of the hoi polloi around.

As a skier I get it, and I was totally sympathetic with the former, if I was a drive up local then the more important thing would be loss of convenience of car parking vs frills that would do nothing to enhance the ski experience or open up new terrain etc.

The latter I perceived as a pure entitlement issue - that people who had shelled out for a ful DV pass for example were somehow more entitled to use the slopes than others paying what the owners asked for other means.

So is localism justified - should locals have some special rights and privileges? Or given that the ski industry to my knowledge doesn't use slavery and people are therefore able to chose what they become "local" to is it a matter of "suck it up or move on" if things happen that aren't to your taste? Don't really mean to extend it beyond the skiing question because ski hills are commercial enterprises, we all know the problems that can occur when e.g. nature spots "blow up" beyond the capacity of infrastructure .

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I know with the surfing culture the localism can be pretty bad depending on the region and surf spot. For example if you are surfing somewhere that's not your local spot you don't paddle right out to the line up and go out of order dropping in on waves and dropping in on everyone this can cause you some grief depending on where you are. This faux pas can get you into some trouble because they get pretty agro and are vocal about it.

I don't think anyone deserves special treatment. The locals are the luckiest of all as they can often ski during the week when us weekend warriors aren't there. I mean I ski every weekend at mainly 2 mountains and everyone knows us so I do get a little irked when when you have the 1 or 2x a year or fairweather ski people that take over the place. That said I want the mountain to thrive and be busy so I know the volume is good for the mountain so I deal. I know that we'll get our mountain back after the busy period or even on Sunday afternoon after the herds leave. Sometimes I get a little irked when I can't even ski safely down a trail because every yahoo and their brother is zipping by me uncontrollably. Or I'll go into the bar and I can't even get to the bartenders. I don't want special treatment because I know the extra crowds means the mountain is making money. I'll just go apre in the the shed at broms, our condo at magic or if at Killington we tailgate.

One reason I love Magic is because the entire mountain is pretty much a locals mountain as all the big volume goes to the other resorts in the area so even a crowded day is nothing like at other places. The only place everywhere is a sh!t show is the weekend of MLK so we just go ski in quebec where it's not a holiday and all is right in the world.

 

[Bad Bob]

Agree with your sentiment . Regarding resort communities locals move there for most of the same reasons that newcomers and tourists arrive. For the resort to continue there must be a return for them. Tourists bring the big bucks in so it is in everyone's interest to help make things enjoyable for them.

It is also just plane old fashioned good manners to respect the locals and their culture when you are just visiting ( Captain Cooks last visit to Hawaii is a classic example of why).

As a new comer it is also wise to spend some time and earn your spurs as a "local ", before you try to change the local culture. Most cultures have root in necessity or pragmatism, find out the whys, and you will often be more warmly welcomed.

Bottom line though is there will always be change. Our world is not our parent's world nor will it be our kid's.

 

[Ski&ride]

A couple of examples

Sorry, you 2 examples are the same.

The first one is lose of convenient parking with nothing to gain (water park)

The second is lose of skiing with longer lift line wait and powders gone much sooner.

It’s not about having more of the hoi polloi AROUND, it’s about getting less skiing done due the increase number of hou polloi. At least THAT was the complaints I heard.

And it’s not just the locals who are doing the complaining. Visitors complained too. Some first time visitors said they will not return because the place was overhyped, or too busy, or had bad snow surface condition, whatever. True reason being, once a place is over capacity, it changes the experience significantly. Whatever reason they went in the first place were perhaps not fulfilled.

For visitors, they have the option of not returning. Locals don’t have that, not easily anyway.

So, do locals have some privilege? Not really. But they FEEL they do because they’ve got more invested.

 

[fatbob]

Yeah maybe - depends on the perspective you take. On one level I agree they are both about devaluation of a person's ski experience.

 

[Analisa]

I think it's justified if people live in the community and the changes make major impacts there. In that case, no different than any other form of community action - like designating a county as dry, rallying for a homeless shelter/"adult" business not to be allowed in close proximity to an elementary school, or Seattle's green city ordinances like no plastic bags, cutlery, straws and forced composting & recycling. Corporations with deep pockets shouldn't be able to trounce what residents want for their community - and especially in cases where the businesses aren't even located there.

I think a lot about the Early Winters resort that the Methow Valley Citizen's Council fought off for 40 years. The resort was supposed to upstage Whistler. The Methow's home to about 3,000 people and deer outnumber residents 6:1. It's tough to make ends meet out there, but the people I know who live there make work with a handful of jobs and are drawn to the tight-knit community and access to recreation. The valley's always had a draw for tourists, but visitors are generally from the west side of the state, and there for a long weekend. And a good number are there to climb the Goat Wall or mountain bike Angels Staircase or take their skate skis on the country's longest XC trail system. They mesh well with the valley's enthusiasm for human powered recreation. They didn't want to become an international ski destination and had concerns about the ecological impact. I'm sure a lot of people would've loved to ski there, but I think the residents deserve a say in what the valley looks like. And in that same vein, if a community wants the ski area but without the waterpark and condos and club scene at the village, they should have a voice in that.

If the complaints are largely around parking, lift lines, and sharing the runs with vacation skiers who may or may not ski as often or have the time to develop the same level of skill, that's just a sign people somehow left preschool without learning how to play nice with others.

 

[Sibhusky]

once a place is over capacity, it changes the experience significantly. Whatever reason they went in the first place were perhaps not fulfilled.

For visitors, they have the option of not returning. Locals don’t have that, not easily anyway.

+++
The main draw to come here was the fact that most skiers hadn't even heard of Big Mountain when we came. I was constantly having to explain where we were going. Now we're on the cusp of being over loved. (Just as Glacier National Park is over loved. The tourist boards need to dial it back until infrastructure in this area catches up. I won't even visit this year. No interest.) The mountain is expanding lift served terrain, but that only helps with lift lines. The old back country experience with patrolled hike to terrain is what's suffering. Back on Epic I'd rahrah this place like crazy. I try to restrain myself now. There's cruisers I won't touch most of the winter because it's like being on the interstate. As they spread the skiers out, yes the place seems bigger in one way, but the little pockets of peace are vanishing (East Rim is trashed). I was relying on the fog to control the crowds, but they are coming anyway.

Since I'm getting older, probably I'll miss the worst it will get to, while realizing the real estate windfall right in time for Assisted Living. But it's sad what is coming.

 

[Ross Biff]

Around my neck of the woods you need to have a grandparent buried in the local cemetery to be regarded as a "local". There can be an unwelcome sense of entitlement in some regards but no one can feel bitter when someone else is lucky enough to have discovered the beauty and attractions that drew us here. There is, however, a limit to what the infrastructure can handle before negative impacts appear. I avoid the supermarket after 3 pm for example. When the permanent population is 4000 and it swells to 24000 in ski season the limit is fast -approaching. I do try to keep a sense of perspective and as most posters on here are longtime skiers who have seen a lot of change over the years I remind myself that the later arrivals to our sport are probably having as much fun as we all did when we started " back in the day". I still look forward to my weekends and would love to ski all week but I wouldn't be anywhere else. Let's all keep playing nice!

 

[bigskymck]

Howdy: Seems to me the issue of "locals" is rife with hypocrisy and NIMBYISM. I've been on both sides of the fence. I am a native of Montana, born in Bozeman (now an unzoned abomination) in 1954, a member of a pioneer family that created a ranch west of Bozeman in the early 1870s, which is still being operated by a branch of the family. Oh how I loved/love to make fun of flatlanders who move to Montana flush with the equity they took out of some Eastern hellhole, buy a cowboy hat and pickup and, within a couple years, start badmouthing newcomers and tourists.
So what did I do? Move to Colorado (35 years ago), where I played my part in changing its culture and landscape for the worse and crowding up its slopes. My daughters and grandkids, all Colorado natives, must dislike folks like me.
Anyone who grew up in the intermountain West in the 1950s and 60s knows the Real West is long gone, killed by disposable income, remote jobs, the decline of logging and family Ag, and the influx of hippies, yuppies, hipsters and the stinking rich. None of us are locals anymore. All of us are to blame.
In the long run, global warming will take care of the crowded ski slopes. Meanwhile, I'm just going to continue to blame the Texans ... because, well, they're Texans.

 

[Tricia]

As a new comer it is also wise to spend some time and earn your spurs as a "local ", before you try to change the local culture. Most cultures have root in necessity or pragmatism, find out the whys, and you will often be more warmly welcomed.

Bottom line though is there will always be change. Our world is not our parent's world nor will it be our kid's.

^^^^ This!
I said,(in the Deer Valley thread) last winter that I was surprised at how members who moved to DV within the past two years were carrying their "now I'm a local" banner. I've lived in Tahoe for 9 years and still yield to the "long time locals". Occasionally I'll have someone newer to the area ask me questions and look to me as though I've been here a long time and I still feel....I've only been here 9 years.

Once in a great while I'll run into someone who's lived here their whole life who portrays the true local attitude, but mostly I think its my own personal respect for "local"

Meanwhile, things change, they always do.

 

[Bad Bob]

Howdy: Seems to me the issue of "locals" is rife with hypocrisy and NIMBYISM. I've been on both sides of the fence. I am a native of Montana, born in Bozeman (now an unzoned abomination) in 1954, a member of a pioneer family that created a ranch west of Bozeman in the early 1870s, which is still being operated by a branch of the family. Oh how I loved/love to make fun of flatlanders who move to Montana flush with the equity they took out of some Eastern hellhole, buy a cowboy hat and pickup and, within a couple years, start badmouthing newcomers and tourists.
So what did I do? Move to Colorado (35 years ago), where I played my part in changing its culture and landscape for the worse and crowding up its slopes. My daughters and grandkids, all Colorado natives, must dislike folks like me.
Anyone who grew up in the intermountain West in the 1950s and 60s knows the Real West is long gone, killed by disposable income, remote jobs, the decline of logging and family Ag, and the influx of hippies, yuppies, hipsters and the stinking rich. None of us are locals anymore. All of us are to blame.
In the long run, global warming will take care of the crowded ski slopes. Meanwhile, I'm just going to continue to blame the Texans ... because, well, they're Texans.

The intermountain West is alive and well if you look in the right "ski towns". You won't be going to a tier 1 resort, but you will get top shelf snow terrain with towns where the guy at the hardware store knows you by sight. They are there but most people today look for a resort town not necessarily a ski town. I was skiing at 5 of them this past season, most have micro breweries all have multiple lifts on the hill and negligible lift lines and freshies till the next day. You just have to be willing to ski somewhere that you don't necessarily hear about much on the ski forums very often. @Sibhusky knows what I am talking about.

The West of today lives, but it has changed. You did not ruin CO, you just helped change it. The cowboys of today have cell phones and want good wifi.

 

[Doug Briggs]

...

I don't think anyone deserves special treatment. The locals are the luckiest of all as they can often ski during the week when us weekend warriors aren't there. I mean I ski every weekend at mainly 2 mountains and everyone knows us so I do get a little irked when when you have the 1 or 2x a year or fairweather ski people that take over the place. That said I want the mountain to thrive and be busy so I know the volume is good for the mountain so I deal. I know that we'll get our mountain back after the busy period or even on Sunday afternoon after the herds leave. Sometimes I get a little irked when I can't even ski safely down a trail because every yahoo and their brother is zipping by me uncontrollably. Or I'll go into the bar and I can't even get to the bartenders. I don't want special treatment because I know the extra crowds means the mountain is making money. I'll just go apre in the the shed at broms, our condo at magic or if at Killington we tailgate.

One reason I love Magic is because the entire mountain is pretty much a locals mountain as all the big volume goes to the other resorts in the area so even a crowded day is nothing like at other places. The only place everywhere is a sh!t show is the weekend of MLK so we just go ski in quebec where it's not a holiday and all is right in the world.

This.

I appreciate the people that come to visit and ski 'my' area. I enjoy conversations on the lift with them, pointing over my shoulder when they ask where I live, the financial support they bring and the general excitement they bring as folks that don't get to hit the slopes whenever they want.

 

[slowrider]

Somewhere around 35 yrs I didn't care if I was a local.

 

[SBrown]

...Meanwhile, I'm just going to continue to blame the Texans ... because, well, they're Texans.

I thought we were supposed to blame millennials now?

 

[eok]

I'm a "local" near a ski resort. While I sometimes can get annoyed by the horde of tourists on big days, I generally don't care. My attitude is: if you pay the $$$ & show up to ski then you deserve to ski & have a good time. Period.

I used to live in a surf town on the central CA coast. Much of the territorial local vs non-local surf culture has similarities to local vs non-local ski culture. I do get the attitudes that drive it. I do. I shared those attitudes with my buddies in the 70s/80s. I've since grown up a wee bit and have learned it's pointless to waste energy on what is really a pointless distraction from actually skiing.

Anyway, the hordes will come regardless of how much locals complain and talk smack about gappers/tourists. And - if by some miracle - the locals do get their way and somehow keep the hordes away then the locals can all high-five themselves: "Yay, 'bro!". But they can kiss lift-served skiing goodbye. No hordes = too few $$$ to keep the lifts spinning. Simple accounting 101 math 'bro!

 

[Tricia]

Simple accounting 101 math 'bro!

 

[no edge]

Seems like we are talking big mountain experiences. It gets crazy out West. I ski the East and it seems like the crowds are not that bad. When I say that I often get push back.

Magic Mt has long lift lines. The locals are very welcoming. They know that the mountain needs revenue to stay alive. I hooked up with a group one day and they didn't even know me. I hopped off a rock and double ejected. It took me 15 min. to find my skis and when I clicked in, they were standing patiently waiting for me. I couldn't believe it. A similar situation happened last year. I was by myself in middle of no where and lost a ski. I was having a tough time getting the ski back on. Two guys showed up and waited while I got my $#!t together. That was very kind.

My home mountain is Jiminy Peak. I ski there on weekdays and sometimes on Sundays. It draws big crowds on the weekends, but I can do laps on the high-speed six-pack - 5 min. wait. It's the parking that sucks plus all of the tourists. But they gotta pay the bills. If you get there late, which always do, you ride in the cattle car.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

This.

I appreciate the people that come to visit and ski 'my' area. I enjoy conversations on the lift with them, pointing over my shoulder when they ask where I live, the financial support they bring and the general excitement they bring as folks that don't get to hit the slopes whenever they want.

I sometimes get cranky when it's crowded and "my mountain" gets invaded but I keep it in check because I know it's important to share the sandbox. Last season I was off for the morning and on the chair with this woman who was a once a season skier. She and her hubby come to bromley and stay for a week. Since she only skis there once a year she forgets where the friendlier blues are and was nervous about where to go. I told her friendlier blues to the left and steeper more challenging blues to the right. She was nervous and tentative and we ended up skiing a few runs together. She kept thanking me for skiing with herm, I think she was just so happy to have the company as it seemed to calm her down. My goal was to make her feel comfortable and It made me happy to share the mountain. Hopefully she had a great day and will come back this season. I'm actually quite shy but I think it's great fun to chat with people and learn their story. This is what I try to remember if I get irked about the playground being invaded. Now if you are jerk and disrespectful then I'm a little less tolerant but it's these great experiences that really make it all worthwhile.

 

[Tricia]

Lets talk about localism at the smaller ski places (regionally)and the tone of localism that is slightly different.

Mt Rose for example. When you ski Mt Rose there is a unique balance of "chill" and "I'm loyal to Mt Rose because it has everything I need, and I don't need the frills of places Squaw like "those people" do". There is a bit of exaggeration, but you get the idea.

 

[Tricia]

+++
The main draw to come here was the fact that most skiers hadn't even heard of Big Mountain when we came. I was constantly having to explain where we were going. Now we're on the cusp of being over loved. (Just as Glacier National Park is over loved. The tourist boards need to dial it back until infrastructure in this area catches up. I won't even visit this year. No interest.) The mountain is expanding lift served terrain, but that only helps with lift lines. The old back country experience with patrolled hike to terrain is what's suffering. Back on Epic I'd rahrah this place like crazy. I try to restrain myself now. There's cruisers I won't touch most of the winter because it's like being on the interstate. As they spread the skiers out, yes the place seems bigger in one way, but the little pockets of peace are vanishing (East Rim is trashed). I was relying on the fog to control the crowds, but they are coming anyway.

Since I'm getting older, probably I'll miss the worst it will get to, while realizing the real estate windfall right in time for Assisted Living. But it's sad what is coming.

Funny, Someone at the ski shop was talking about what the impact of advertising and holding events is having on the town of Truckee vs the impact on the resorts that are advertising/hosting these events. Shops like ours aren't seeing the business from this marketing because people are heading here, crowding the infrastructure, using lodging and restaurants but not shopping because they do that AT the event. Meanwhile, the locals avoid going out during these times and we lose that shopper as well.