Loading the top of the turn

[bawbawbel]

Karl Schranz once said:
"If a racer can equally load the top of the turn he will be the winner"
How is that achieved?

 

[Josh Matta]

by unloading the end of the turn.

You can generate speed on flats. by turning.....doesnt mean you do always down the hill though

 

[john petersen]

Karl Schranz once said:
"If a racer can equally load the top of the turn he will be the winner"
How is that achieved?

Thats the spirit, Bcubed!....glad you stayed. its the best forum Ive been on so far!

as Josh stated : by releasing the old turn asap.

I think that, in doing this, a skier can set themselves up for the new turn and really engage the new edges either creating speed, scribing an early arc(s) or re positioning themselves if they are coming in too hot to the next gate.....

Im assuming that "equally load" means in good balance over the centers of both feet or being in a good position to employ whatever tactics are needed.....

But Im not a racer, and not a race coach....so it could mean something else...

JP

 

[bawbawbel]

Thats the spirit, Bcubed!....glad you stayed. its the best forum Ive been on so far!

as Josh stated : by releasing the old turn asap.

I think that, in doing this, a skier can set themselves up for the new turn and really engage the new edges either creating speed, scribing an early arc(s) or re positioning themselves if they are coming in too hot to the next gate.....

Im assuming that "equally load" means in good balance over the centers of both feet or being in a good position to employ whatever tactics are needed.....

But Im not a racer, and not a race coach....so it could mean something else...

JP

Thank you, JP. Because my system is so different, It is very easy to assume that I am antagonistic to individuals , rather than dogma. Not.
Karl was definitely referring to the difficulty in loading (or bending) the skis early, compared to later, when gravity tends to overload them .

The Australian dogma for recreational instruction is that the top of the turn should be coasted, with any forced edging a no-no.
It produces very impressive "demonstration" runs on smooth piste for our heroes.
Why do I think that this is undesirable?
Because even ski loading produces a much lower AVERAGE edge pressure for a given turn, easier on the knees, and very forgiving on ice, for instance.

 

[LiquidFeet]

"even ski loading produces a much lower AVERAGE edge pressure for a given turn, easier on the knees, and very forgiving on ice, for instance."

A skier can make very round turns on groomers that have no pulse, no instant of extra pressure. I like making these turns; they even out the pressure from turn start to turn finish, so they may be what you are talking about.

To do this turn, there needs to be a top half to it, and that top half needs to be about as big as the bottom half. Getting that top half to be big involves getting skis on new edges up there, using a flex-to-release, then extending the legs out towards the side of the trail as the body crosses downhill over the skis. Pulling both feet back before the extension helps lengthen that top half.

Spending time in the top half of a turn slows down one's travel down the hill. If one skier in a group is doing these (often me), that person will be the last one to reach the lift. There's more time spent going across the hill in those turns.

I'm not sure how racers use this for speed, but I have a logical guess. Slalom racers use reaching short radius turns. They use the "reach" to get feet around the gate while shortcutting the body more straight down the hill on the inside of the gate. Clearly, I am not speaking from experience using this type of turn in racing.

@bawbawbel does this sound like what you are talking about?

 

[john petersen]

To do this turn, there needs to be a top half to it, and that top half needs to be about as big as the bottom half. Getting that top half to be big involves getting skis on new edges up there, using a flex-to-release, then extending the legs out towards the side of the trail as the body crosses downhill over the skis. Pulling both feet back before the extension helps lengthen that top half.

Spending time in the top half of a turn slows down one's travel down the hill. If one skier in a group is doing these (often me), that person will be the last one to reach the lift. There's more time spent going across the hill in those turns.

I like this description. especially about the fore/aft manipulation with the feet before extension. (upside down turn?)

if (when) you like to make technically efficient turns, this is the way to do them, liquid!

JP

 

[JESinstr]

Hmmmm why does this video (one of my favorites) come to mind? Also take a moment to rethink the term "release" in the context of what this drill is trying get the skier to do.

 

[Philpug]

Karl Schranz once said:
"If a racer can equally load the top of the turn he will be the winner"
How is that achieved?

by unloading the end of the turn.

You can generate speed on flats. by turning.....doesnt mean you do always down the hill though

Thus the end of the turn and the beginning of the next turn become one?!?

 

[François Pugh]

Thus the end of the turn and the beginning of the next turn become one?!?

Almost but not quite. While I like to think of a run down the mountain as a single continuous carve, varying in turn radius from infinity at transition to very small at the apex of some turns and merely small at others, the truth is there is a change of edges. Because the skis side-cut radius does not extend to infinity and because the two edges are separated by the width of the ski, we can't quite make the edges one. It's kind of like changing gears on an old ten-speed (remember those?). You don't force the pedals until the new gear is engaged. Or like a shift kit for your motorcycle cuts the power at the instant of changing gears. I try to make the shift as smooth and brief as possible. Cross-under transitions are (imho) best for learning this, because it unloads the edges.

 

[Art of Skiing]

Karl Schranz was a good skier in the 60's and 70's, hence his statement is probably an outdated phrase about outdated technique. What Schranz said is definitely not true according to modern skiing insights.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I think Karl was recognizing that there was too much pressure at the end of turns which was slowing the skier and still does to this day. He certainly thought that pressure earlier in the turn was better. While we don't 'equally load the top of the turn' now, successful racers do load the ski well before the 'bottom' of the turn, releasing it before the 'bottom'. The fastest racers today are generally maximizing the load at the apex of the turn. Not on the top, not on the bottom, but in zee middle.

 

[bawbawbel]

by unloading the end of the turn.

You can generate speed on flats. by turning.....doesnt mean you do always down the hill though

I think Karl was recognizing that there was too much pressure at the end of turns which was slowing the skier and still does to this day. He certainly thought that pressure earlier in the turn was better. While we don't 'equally load the top of the turn' now, successful racers do load the ski well before the 'bottom' of the turn, releasing it before the 'bottom'. The fastest racers today are generally maximizing the load at the apex of the turn. Not on the top, not on the bottom, but in zee middle.

Yes, Doug, no doubt illustrated by where the pressure spray from the skis begins and ends. How do YOU achieve this? Extension into the middle of the turn?

Generating speed involves muscular input from the skier, of course (various Newton laws).
But I don't see racers bouncing up from deliberate end of turn ski bending or jettting or stepping uphilll or extra modification of turnshape any more. So all those efforts must be no longer be effective. But I do see (ahem) coiling..

 

[Doug Briggs]

Extension as much as resistance. When you move toward the inside at the beginning of the turn, you are also extending. You have to leave enough extension to remain strong. Too straight and you are rigid. At the apex of the turn if you aren't strong, you'll not maintain your edge, loose grip and skid.

 

[BornToSki683]

Its all about balance. The sooner a skier establishes balance on the outside ski, the sooner the pressure will be there, and due to the "balance" it will be maintained through the shaping phase( ie, the apex)

Releasing as soon as possible can reduce some of the late impulse LF mentioned and as long as a skier doesn't actually need that impulse to zip across the hill then the simple truth is that this late pressure which pushes the skier in a direction towards uphill is slowing the skier down. Its working against gravity.

So generally you want to embrace the hard to get pressure in the top half of the turn and be careful not to release too late from the pressure in the bottom half of the turn.

Regarding the get over it drill, that is the focus but I caution everyone here, if you create pressure by pushing on the uphill leg, which is what is happening in that video, at least partially, then the skier will ultimately push themselves away from their ski and will lose pressure through the shaping phase which is the ideal place to harness the pressure to move laterally across the hill. In the get over it drill the skier also moves into more of a state of balance over the new outside ski, so that is good; that is establishing balance which brings pressure to the ski just by skiing into it, letting gravity and centripetal forces create the pressure in a sustainable way. However if this is combined with any pushing on the ski by the skier, then ultimately the skier will push themself out of balance through the shaping phase, followed by extreme pressure and late edge sets in the bottom the turn, and a poor release.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Doug Briggs and BTS683 - you get it! The pressure should be in the top half of the turn, ideally peaking at the 90 degrees point and then decreasing. i like to think of the pressure distribution as a bell curve or a triangle. As you come past the apex the pressure should be easing off ready for the switch to the new ski. One of the biggest issues - and time loss! - i see with athletes is increasing the pressure in the bottom half of the turn, and fighting gravity and losing time all the way. Even more obvious when you watch non-racers free-skiing, the pressure seems to increase between 90 degrees and 180 degrees! And when they are doing it people think they are really doing well and loading up the ski - and yes it can feel really good!- (and usually accompanied by the body following the ski tips!) but in reality they are killing speed rather than building it. It may look pretty to the layman but certainly does not work in the course. By pure coincidence I was working on this with one of my athletes this morning in a GS course. He is a strong skier and a PSIA level 3 but still struggling to start letting off the pressure to accelerate the ski which is killing his race times.

And the equal loading does NOT mean equal pressure on both skis. In ski racing we still load the outside ski, aiming for 80/20 - 90/10 most of the time - not really that different from the Karl Schranz era in that respect!

 

[Snuckerpooks]

Doug Briggs and BTS683 - you get it! The pressure should be in the top half of the turn, ideally peaking at the 90 degrees point and then decreasing. i like to think of the pressure distribution as a bell curve or a triangle. As you come past the apex the pressure should be easing off ready for the switch to the new ski. One of the biggest issues - and time loss! - i see with athletes is increasing the pressure in the bottom half of the turn, and fighting gravity and losing time all the way.

In simpler terms, would this be described as getting high enough to be looking towards the next gate as you begin to finish the turn? That way you are taking advantage of the ski rebound back into the fall line?

Or how would you describe the pressure distribution with relation to turn shape and relative to a gate?

 

[Art of Skiing]

Doug Briggs and BTS683 - you get it! The pressure should be in the top half of the turn, ideally peaking at the 90 degrees point and then decreasing. i like to think of the pressure distribution as a bell curve or a triangle. As you come past the apex the pressure should be easing off ready for the switch to the new ski. One of the biggest issues - and time loss! - i see with athletes is increasing the pressure in the bottom half of the turn, and fighting gravity and losing time all the way. Even more obvious when you watch non-racers free-skiing, the pressure seems to increase between 90 degrees and 180 degrees! And when they are doing it people think they are really doing well and loading up the ski - and yes it can feel really good!- (and usually accompanied by the body following the ski tips!) but in reality they are killing speed rather than building it. It may look pretty to the layman but certainly does not work in the course. By pure coincidence I was working on this with one of my athletes this morning in a GS course. He is a strong skier and a PSIA level 3 but still struggling to start letting off the pressure to accelerate the ski which is killing his race times.

And the equal loading does NOT mean equal pressure on both skis. In ski racing we still load the outside ski, aiming for 80/20 - 90/10 most of the time - not really that different from the Karl Schranz era in that respect!

You should take a look at the Reid thesis.
Pressure should not be in the top half of the turn and there should be pressure after the fall line. The study even shows that pressure does sometimes increase after the apex or gate. The study used world class racers btw.

 

[bawbawbel]

You should take a look at the Reid thesis.
Pressure should not be in the top half of the turn and there should be pressure after the fall line. The study even shows that pressure does sometimes increase after the apex or gate. The study used world class racers btw.

"No pressure in the top half of the turn" ?? That maximum snow reaction pressure ( 3.5 G's ! ) has to be just after transition, of course . IE in the top of the turn. I note Ligeti's violent upswing of both arms to effectively increase his weight at that point, improving his edge set.
Coiling must produce the 3% energy gains sometimes noted, but it's main advantage is faster edge set, IMHO.

 

[Superbman]

uh-oh, the Epicski refugees are here in full force at last...

 

[Doug Briggs]

Here are some tracks of a well known WC racer.

edit: Mind the volume on this video: turn it off. The soundtrack is hideous.

I interpret the depth of the track to indicate the relative pressure the ski is applying to the snow. It seems to me there is pressure developing above and diminishing below the apex of the turn, with the maximum just about at the gate.