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Muleski

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I've been reading this thread with interest. Spending time at Crested Butte and watching David Chodounsky struggle to get himself to WC skiing without USST support, was painful. I hope the USST can find its way to recognizing the value of NCAA skiing as a way to make the US more competitive on the World Cup circuit.

I went to the University of Denver many, many years ago (pre-World Cup) and the university was not at all shy about recruiting foreign athletes (maybe all Norwegians) for both its alpine and nordic teams. Anyone remember Jan Stenerud who was a great field goal/extra point kicker for the Kansas City Chiefs? He was a NCAA skier before starting setting records in pro football. So those foreign guys have been around for awhile.

Well, this doesn't fit here. Musta got lost online. Too late to fix it now.


Guessing you wanted to respond on the NCAA thread. No big deal. Good post, good points.

My brother raced at the top of the NCAA in the mid sixties, and had a number of Scandanavian teammates. Most, but not all, were nordic skiers.

One of those who really changed the landscape was at DU in the mid 70's, Otto Tschudi. He is Norwegian, and is a tremendous guy. He was a bit unusual at the time, having been a two time Olympian before he came to DU. Legend has it that coach Willy S actually recruited him at the finish of a WC race in Austria, offered him a full scholarship and sealed the deal in about a half an hour. Guess admissions and money were no issue!

Otto had a tremendous NCAA ski career, and he was according to mutual friends an equally talented student. Finance guy. He has gone on to a very, very successful investment banking career. He also has given back a TON to DU. I am quite sure that he is a long time trustee, and I know that he was instrumental with his energy, Rolodex and wallet in resurrecting DU's ski team. As I recall, it was cut for budget reasons in 80's, and then brought back about a decade later. I believe that Otto was one of the driving forces in making that happen.

That experience and story is tremendous. It's also not at all what the Norwegian federation is pushing, to my understanding, today. There are at least five skiing on the WC who came to the US to ski, and prepare for a WC career, at the same time that Norway cut a lot out of their system. Would be like the USST cutting way back on the C team, and most of the B team. Putting almost all of the money on the top performers and the youngest D teamers.

Guys who were winning the Norwegian national championships, started heading to the USA and NCAA. Jonathan Notbotten to UVM, then right to the WC.

One simple answer often offered is that we simply need to produce equally fast skiers, in more numbers, and take advantage of the same college system. Not restrict those coming here. Recognize that it has a lot of pluses, and can be a bigger part of skier development than it has been. The more competitive, the better!

But, yes, skiers from abroad are not new.

Nor is, until VERY recently, the USST making it quite difficult for anybody who has not been in the system since they were a teen, bypassing college, to jump into the program and advance. Chowder has made it work. Huge praise and kudo's. If we put together a list of those who were not truly given the same support, and included a lot of the coach comments, most would be amazed.

A reasonably decent USST alpine skier, name of Miller, has told me more than once that two of them in his opinion could have been as good as anybody in the sport. Like pushing Ligety, and him. Better than Jitloff. But they were outsiders. Late bloomers. Not chosen ones as kids.

Check out Jit's career. He was supposed to be what Ligety became. I think that a number of college guys, given his funding and support might have done better. I am not picking on him.

Hearing a coach complain that he needs to work with an athlete, who made team criteria, because he's a college guy who got lucky, is wrong. It's ancient thinking. Like he's not one of them.

We're still missing the boat on this, or not giving it enough time. Hope change is underway. I know that it is, but it's got to be significant. You bring a kid on the D team at 18, and they will have a lot of time. Bring a 23 year old on the B Team, and you expect him to be scoring WC points almost right away. Then you cut him. That's not a realistic development plan.

Or you make it so expensive that they do it on their own, which is very, very difficult.

Leif Haugen is 30. He graduated from DU at 25. If he were on the USST, he probably would have been cut a few year ago Instead he's a legit podium threat on the WC. Just won a bronze in St. Moritz.

If the NCAA works for the rest, we should figure out how to optimize it for the USST.

Just my opinion, shared by a few, I think.
 

markojp

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Very good stuff, Muleski. Back in the day, particular divisional coaches held the keys. It was a sad state. Eric Sailer essentially eliminated anyone from Central who didn't ski for Buck Hill from being invited to fill spots higher up, even when guys from other regions in central were kicking his skiers' butts. I can think of two in particular who objectively should have had much greater opportunity had they not been in the 'wrong' region of Central. Now it seems that those not in the academy system are excluded from opportunity. The academies are great, but unfortunately the talent pool is diminished by the level of financial commitment needed to participate. There should be multiple avenues to WC all based on merit, and yes, that merit is fleeting. I also agree that NCAA skiers from abroad aren't the problem but indicative of a flaw in assumptions on the part of the USST and the commensurate waste of talent on the part of parents and athletes chasing the wrong rabbit.
 

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Yes, very good stuff. Correct for sure about Jit. I got him his first pr. of Dynastars when he was like 7 or something. A coach found me up at Hood one day and showed me a slide (yeah.....a while back) of him and I thought......holy cow!. We all thought that we would become a world beater......but never quite did. Interestingly, he was the youngest of three and obviously went the furthest, but was not the best athlete, the middle brother was. But........he didn't grow much early on and was at one point or another, just too small to really compete at the very highest level of his age group. He had other things to do, and (I think) became fairly accomplished as a mtn bike racer or somesuch. The older brother still lived in town last I saw him and I think is a firefighter or something. Great family.
 

Frankly

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In Yesterday's DH (March 3, 2017) Porino seemed to go along with "Lindsey is back to top form". I don't know about that, she didn't exactly ace it yesterday and Goggia's wonderfully spirited but flawed run still beat her (barely).

There was a very brief camera flash on her reaction to Goggia that wasn't exactly pleasant but revealing that she thought she had her first post arm injury win in the bag. It was nice that they returned and showed her and Goggia back to their usual friendly banter, and Goggia was extremely complimentary to LV on social media.

And yes it was great to see Goggia finally get a much deserved win and fun to watch her wild skiing.

My bet is that LV has hit the wall and will be fighting for podiums rather than cleaning the field from here on out, beating the Stenmark record won't happen, we'll save that for Shiffren.
 
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Muleski

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In Yesterday's DH (March 3, 2017) Porino seemed to go along with "Lindsey is back to top form". I don't know about, she didn't exactly ace it yesterday and Goggia's wonderfully spirited but flawed run still beat her (barely).

There was a very brief camera flash on her reaction to Goggia that wasn't exactly pleasant but revealing that she thought she had her first post arm injury win in the bag. It was nice that they returned and showed her and Goggia back to their usual friendly banter, and Goggia was extremely complimentary to LV on social media.

And yes it was great to see Goggia finally get a much deserved win and fun to watch her wild skiing.

My bet is that LV has hit the wall and will be fighting for podiums rather than cleaning the field from here on out, beating the Stenmark record won't happen, we'll save that for Shiffren.


Not to be "that guy", but LV did win the DH at Garmisch. Her only win since the arm break.

I posted similar thoughts on Monday. Getting nine wins to tie Stenmark is going to be incredibly hard. Ten to beat him. I think she has one season and three starts this year to do it. IF she can pull that off, it will be amazing.

We'll see. I think it's going to require a VERY different off season that a year ago. 110% dedication to this, and almost eliminating all of her camera time,etc. I don't quite see that happening. Complex woman, large and at times fragile ego. She really loves her new leaner look. Many in the sport think last summer was one big photo op.

Now, she could go out tomorrow and win the SG, and I would not bet against her to win one at Aspen. That puts her seven away. Still a huge goal with Ms. Stuhec, Goggia, Gut coming back.

I think your comment that LV will be fighting for podiums rather than wins is absolutely spot on.
She is already the best woman speed skier in history. And she will own the win record, for who knows how long. I can't imagine that she will ski past next season, just to chase this record. Particularly when the wins seem more elusive. One exception. If she is one or two away, she might go all in to race the start of the 2018 fall....Lake Louise. But I doubt it.

I also think one more injury ends her career.

As far as her reaction to Goggia's run, I think it's just realistic. She wanted the win. My impression is that at this stage of her career, she genuinely likes these women, and they like her. But surely she was disappointed.

The "head game" is that she may be now thinking that she can only win when she skis perfectly. And otherwise, there are others who can beat her when they are not perfect. That has never been the case in past seasons. A good, not perfect, LV run was a win. Now, on most DH tracks does a perfect Stuhec beat a perfect Vonn? If Vonn thinks so, that makes the nine wins that much harder.

MS is, as we all know, emerging as a once a generation skier. I honestly think the question will be how long she will want to keep at it. And whether anybody emerges who can start swapping SL wins with her? She has been on the WC for six seasons. Part of me thinks she could still be doing this at 30, and that she might get to 90+ wins. Part of me says no way.

I read a comment somewhere about Hirscher challenging Stenmark's record, which I thought was frankly insane. Not a chance on earth. Hirscher is consistent, and as we saw today, he does win big at times. He ALWAYS podiums. The six overall globes are no fluke. He is the best.

He has said all along that he will not be doing this at age 30. My hunch is that next year will be his last. I think we are going to see a lot of retirements as the 2018 season ends.

I hope that LV works like a dog on and off snow this summer, and maybe even adds some muscle mass back on to her body. Gets her SG back on track, has complete faith in both knees, and hopefully has less of an issue with the nerve damage in the hand.

Either way...she's the best. Fun podium today, great for Goggia. Love her skiing and her energy.
 
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Frankly

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I posted similar thoughts on Monday.

With all due respect, your posts are "the thinking" and there isn't much to add without this turning into the solo Muleski blog. I'm just reiterating it in a different way so it continues to look like a thread!

To summarize:

Euros are taking advantage of our college programs while the USST is oblivious.

Vonn-Shiffren-Hirscher-Gut-Norwegians are awesome.

Everyone racing is going to mess up their knees and backs.
 

Rudi Riet

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I also think one more injury ends her career.

...

I hope that LV works like a dog on and off snow this summer, and maybe even adds some muscle mass back on to her body. Gets her SG back on track, has complete faith in both knees, and hopefully has less of an issue with the nerve damage in the hand.

I also hope she focuses on the task at hand and not on Lindsey Vonn™ (the brand). If she truly wants to break the Stenmark record, she needs to redouble her efforts in terms of strength training, lack of distractions, etc.

FWIW, I see her continuing to wear the knee brace as a mental crutch: something she can blame when the skiing just isn't there. Honestly, a knee brace at the elite level doesn't really do anything to prevent re-injury of a beat-up knee. It's there mostly for the psychosomatic response, one of "hey, this thing brings me that 0.001 percent extra bit of confidence." And not to completely discredit such responses, but she needs to, as @Muleski said above, have complete faith in her knees to get those wins. She needs to ski better and stronger than she is, especially with Goggia, Stuhec, Gut, Shiffrin (and who knows the others - maybe Tippler next season?) who can beat her without skiing perfectly.

So she's either 100 percent in and focused from here on out, or she will be asking "what if?" for the rest of her life.

As for the nerve issues in the hand, I have a sneaking suspicion that they may be permanent, given the nature of the break and the surgical repair. So she'll need to adjust, which is something she's had to do myriad times in her career. It's a chance for her sponsors to work out a better solution over the long run.
 

markojp

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Tough crowd.,, a DH win, a second, and and SG second after a horrendous arm break and nerve damage. Many would have hung it up after the knee injury. Wins in speed events won't be easy, but I'd contend that her arm strength/usability isn't 100%. She lost two events by a combined .09 seconds. Say what you want, but she's a fierce competitor. She may or may not break Stenmark's record, but the 'she's pretty much done' vibe, I don't see it.
 

Muleski

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Agree. No way is she done. And I am not hearing that. What I AM hearing is that she is going to race through 2018, and then it will be a wrap. That has been the plan. Could that change? Sure.

This was a great weekend for her. So close to two wins. She can win. Ten wins away from taking the wins record. That is going to be very, very difficult to grab in one season. Stuhec in particular has just arrived and is going to be there in every DH. We'll just see how it goes.

She will know Aspen better than anybody at WCF. I hope we see a win there to end her season. Right now she is in a position where she she can pretty much be counted on to podium in any DH, and yesterday was a great SG day for her. She was not perfect, and she was so close. Granted, good hill for her. I think she's right there now in SG, too. Turns look very good.

Goggia is a good example of some great skiing all season with no wins until this weekend. LV could actually win the DH and SG globes next season, and still fall far short of the wins record. But, damn is she close. .04 seconds is about a ski length.

I'm not dreaming up the issue/question of just how critical her spring, summer and fall program will be to this quest. I bet that if it is that important to her, she will work like a dog. She was still coming back from injury last summer, and things are different now.

She was very gracious this weekend. She still wants to win, and can. I've heard that she was very upbeat after the weekend. Very excited about her next, and last, Olympic Games. She knows she is coming back, and gets better each start.

The nerve damage? Have heard from somebody who knows that "we don't know." Seems to be very slowly improving. Might come all the way back, might not. My hunch is that she will work through it, and they may play with all sorts of equipment solutions. Good challenge for the LEKI folks and the team physios.

Wish her the absolute best.
 
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Erik Timmerman

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I couldn't quite tell, did she have her pole tales into her hand again?
 

Muleski

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Don't know how many have picked up on this tidbit, but LV has made it public and clear that she intends to race AT LEAST through 2018-2019 in order to give herself enough time to break Stenmark's record. She has been quoted in different places as saying one more year after next season AND "as long it takes me to get to 87."

She has been skiing well. I am changing my thinking, and think she is going to be entirely focused on this pursuit. I also think that Head will be all over this. Head likely does not like to see a woman tech'd by her mom, with Stockli skis running so fast.

Should be interesting.
 

Dwight

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She needs not to hurt again, though. Today's crashed looked worse than it probably was, says the novice.
 

Muleski

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She needs not to hurt again, though. Today's crashed looked worse than it probably was, says the novice.

Actually, it was a pretty minor crash. Probably a bit bruised, but nothing more. I thought that it was interesting that Bode replayed it a second or third time specifically to point out that her right ski deflected {or bounced} off the gate. The point he made was that if her tip had been an inch or so to the right, she would have likely hooked the gate badly and spun around.

That scenario could have made things much worse. When you are rotatating, and have lower extremities twisting, stuff happens. Her right knee is the one that was most recently injured, and on which she wears the brace. Or as Bode pointed out, you can find your self facing uphill and not knowing when you are impacting, etc.

Yes, she will need to stay healthy, and/or not get too badly beat up. Almosf all of the women on the podium the past two days have significant injury history. Part of what they deal with. She is a very tough lady.

LV sounds like she is all in on this. Once she is rested and goes through a good off season of condition and on snow preparation, she will be on top of her game. Sounds like the Olympics are the top goal, and she will try to peak then. She also sounds like she will wisely give herself at least two more seasons to pick up the 10 wins, which is much more realistic.

I'm rooting for her. Have been very impressed with her since the arm break, in every respect.

It also seems like this group of women really respect each other and like each other. That's great for the sport.

With her fitness at a high level, a lot of time on snow to get dialed in, etc. LV could be back on top of a lot of podiums.

Should be fun. Gut will be back as well. And will we see a SG push from MS?
 

Dwight

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nbcsports stream has no commentary except end of run. Will have to see the taped version later. I like Bode's commentary.

Should be fun to watch SG and Slalom.
 
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Muleski

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Eh she's 32 that's way over the hill ;-p

Some feel that she is well at the end of the back nine. But others close to this have seen a change in attitude, and I guess I'd say a rekindled love of the "whole thing" that makes them think that she may in fact have two great years left in her...who knows?

It's been a lot of years. Not a lot of women, but some competing at ages older than LV. Without a lot of drop off. But yeah, she has been at this at the WC level for 15 years. So we'll see.

Had a conversation with somebody who was very ready to throw in the towel on her early last fall. Very frustrated with her whole red carpet and social media tour of last summer. Knows her very well. Says that she seems very different right now. Her new BF may be a very good guy.

Like I said it will be interesting to watch. She's showed a lot over the past month. I have heard that she seems different, in a very positive way. Guess it depends on what she wants, and wants to work for. And it sounds like she is all in on her skiing. Folks had doubts a few months ago. I heard not one person thinking she would ski past next year.

I think that 10 wins over two seasons might be doable. Not easy by any means. But more of a shot that in one season.

And think anybody agrees that she needs to stay healthy. Not sure to what degree you can control that!

We'll see!
 

Muleski

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I was kidding, my sense is that most us would love to be 32-33 again.

True that! But I think that years in the WC are sort of like dog years. So 15 is a long time!
It amazes me when Hirscher says thee is no chance of his still doing this when he reaches 30!
 

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