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Level shoulders

abcd

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I was watching the video below and they have an example of a "good skier" vs a student skier.
Even to my untrained eye the orange guy looks better than the green guy.
However, when I start looking at details, it looks like the "student" has more level shoulders, and has pretty level hips, unlike the white/orange skier. I do see the a-frame, but I can't pin-point any problem with the upper body.
Is there really an issue with his upper body or everything is in the legs? What are the visual cues to spot it?


full


 

Unpiste

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^You've already spotted it: the green guy is "fixing" his shoulders by bending his spine instead of stacking.
It’s a little bit of a jump from more level shoulders to that observation, but yes, it looks like that’s correct.

One thing I’ll say here based on recent experience is, be careful when blaming an a-frame on skill alone. I had an a-frame I couldn’t seem to get rid of literally until last weekend. Watchful instructors / coaches constantly pointed it out. Got my boots canted, and, so I’m told, it literally disappeared overnight. My conclusion is that, even though it was “bad”, the a-frame was actually the best I could do given body geometry. Things always felt off when trying to intentionally ski without it.

It looks like we don’t actually get to see the green guy ski, which is too bad.
 

Fuller

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He is also not attacking the course like the other guy, look at how far back his hips are.
 

James

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Level shoulders = crock?
Maybe it works for some. I remember AJ Kitt writing about it years ago. He really meant it, like a carpenter’s level.
Maybe at transition? It’s never specified like that though.

But, you might perceive them to be level. Or leveling. So, as a cue it could help with angulation.

389EA2A7-53FC-4A19-842C-651D993BF34D.jpeg

Even this guy isn’t level. I think it’s Lorenz in China.
 

Chris V.

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Yeah, I have trouble seeing level shoulders as an end in itself. Say instead level-ish, or more level than 99.5% of the skiers on the mountain in a similar situation. Could we say it's just a means of facilitating other good things happening? I doubt that the upper body posture of either Mr. Orange or Mr. Green could be called wrong. What stands out instead is that Mr. Green's inside ski isn't tipped to the same angle as the outside ski, his feet are apart, there's a small divergence, and his commitment to balancing on the outside ski is suspect. Aren't these the things limiting him? I concur strongly with Unpiste that as a starting point, alignment should be looked at. I have no skill at this, but have seen how poor alignment screws up a lot of skiers. And I like the commentary in the video.
 
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abcd

abcd

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I doubt that the upper body posture of either Mr. Orange or Mr. Green could be called wrong.
That's how I felt. What confused me is that the whole video is dedicated to the upper body and this picture is supposed to illustrate the whole point of the video
 

Erik Timmerman

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That's how I felt. What confused me is that the whole video is dedicated to the upper body and this picture is supposed to illustrate the whole point of the video

I think the whole point of the video is that he's telling you NOT to focus on level shoulders. One of the comments he said was a "fake angle" that's why green guy looks weird. He's forcing more leveling than he needs for the turn he is doing and is blocking everything else. When orange guy is doing shorter turns in the last sequence he is leveling more than he is in the bigger turns.

28b1c2d6dda1415aa12c4cc8eb6c9677.jpg

I just want to point out the blue dye all over Lindsey's gloves.
 

geepers

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That's how I felt. What confused me is that the whole video is dedicated to the upper body and this picture is supposed to illustrate the whole point of the video

That image of a orange and green skiers was used previously in a thread on hip dumping.

Here as an example of this.

Excellent posts by @LiquidFeet
 

geepers

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@Mike King posted elsewhere but it is relevant to this thread.

Paul Lorenz on the subject of inclination and angulation

The position in “Diagram 3” (ie an upright core) is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort.
 

JESinstr

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- I would like to see a side side on boiler plate.....

- Did you ever notice that the Italians invoke an intentional "intended direction of travel" head turn? Seen it in many Italian videos.
 
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abcd

abcd

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I think the whole point of the video is that he's telling you NOT to focus on level shoulders. One of the comments he said was a "fake angle" that's why green guy looks weird. He's forcing more leveling than he needs for the turn he is doing and is blocking everything else. When orange guy is doing shorter turns in the last sequence he is leveling more than he is in the bigger turns.

28b1c2d6dda1415aa12c4cc8eb6c9677.jpg

I just want to point out the blue dye all over Lindsey's gloves.
This makes sense, thank you
 

tromano

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Just wanted to say that I found some of the discussion on this thread very helpful.

@Mike King posted elsewhere but it is relevant to this thread.

Paul Lorenz on the subject of inclination and angulation

The position in “Diagram 3” (ie an upright core) is very common among high level skiers and particularly candidates around level 3/4. This “over-angulation” is just as unbalanced and possibly more dangerous than if the skier were to incline or completely bank into the turn as in the first diagram. The ski is over edged and the centripetal force has to go somewhere as it is not opposed or balanced. This usually results in over straining of the leg muscles to deal with the pressure and failing that, the skis jetting out in front of the skier. Over angulation often feels like there is too much pressure or increased “g-force” through the turn. It can feel like leg muscles are struggling and your whole body is getting smaller. This struggle is not only uncomfortable, it also prevents the skier from moving further inside further and increase in edge angle and centripetal pressure. At slow speeds this position can be dealt with through muscular effort.
 

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