Comparison Review Let's discuss binding delta

Mike King

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@Philpug I love that there is a column for delta. Two things:

  1. Clearly the delta, expressed in degrees, depends on the BSL for which it is measured. What BSL was used to come up with these numbers?
  2. For some of us, delta is one of the most important, if not the most important, factor in selecting a binding. Might you measure/cajole/plead to include delta measurements on all of the bindings out there?
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Philpug

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@Philpug I love that there is a column for delta. Two things:

  1. Clearly the delta, expressed in degrees, depends on the BSL for which it is measured. What BSL was used to come up with these numbers?
  2. For some of us, delta is one of the most important, if not the most important, factor in selecting a binding. Might you measure/cajole/plead to include delta measurements on all of the bindings out there?
Mike
Mike,
This has been discussed and it would involve measuring every toe and heel I will say for 90+% of the bindings the difference is much less than you would expect for the reference side boots (24.5-27.5), we are talking maybe 1*-2* difference. We found this out by doing some initial testing. Ther are cases like with the Tyrolia Attack 11 where the extreme delta differences is noted in the comments section.
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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I realize it is a pain in the butt, but even a .25 degree amount of ramp, or a difference of a fraction of a degree from optimal, is a huge issue for some of us. And unfortunately, this information is simply not available anywhere. The long and short of it is that Pugski would become a unique source of information on bindings. Perhaps a pretty significant portion of the market doesn't care or wouldn't know the difference, but there's a pretty substantial number of expert skiers and instructors who do.

Mike
 

Philpug

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I realize it is a pain in the butt, but even a .25 degree amount of ramp, or a difference of a fraction of a degree from optimal, is a huge issue for some of us. And unfortunately, this information is simply not available anywhere. The long and short of it is that Pugski would become a unique source of information on bindings. Perhaps a pretty significant portion of the market doesn't care or wouldn't know the difference, but there's a pretty substantial number of expert skiers and instructors who do.

Mike
For clarification, ramp is in the boot, delta is outside the boot. .25*? Impressive. We don't even go .25* in lateral canting and that is with a sole that is 7cm wide..let alone a shell that is 30cm long. I would bet dollars to donuts that you would feel a 5mm stand height difference before you felt even a 1* difference in delta.

Clearly the delta, expressed in degrees, depends on the BSL for which it is measured. What BSL was used to come up with these numbers?
I would suspect that the manufacturer uses a 310-315mm shell for the initial point of reference.
 

markojp

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I'm in the middle of the boot size range. I've skied a bunch of skis and bindings and probably make micro adjustments that I don't really notice. With the exception of small boots in bindings with large deltas, IMHO, boot set up is 99% of the show. Ski tune 20%.... there you go, 119%! There's some math(s) for you!
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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I'm in the middle of the boot size range. I've skied a bunch of skis and bindings and probably make micro adjustments that I don't really notice. With the exception of small boots in bindings with large deltas, IMHO, boot set up is 99% of the show. Ski tune 20%.... there you go, 119%! There's some math(s) for you!
Sure, I'd like to have everything in the boot. That means zero delta in the binding. And since I regularly ski 4 different skis, I'd like all of the bindings to be the same.

BTW, it was David McPhail who found significant differences in net ramp (ramp plus delta) of a fraction of a degree.

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Andy Mink

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As someone who prefers a negative delta (toes higher) and skis a Raptor with rather significant forward lean, I'm guessing I'd like a positive delta with a boot with a lesser forward lean. I doubt I'm tuned in enough to tell a degree or two but I do notice when I'm heel high too far.
 

markojp

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Sure, I'd like to have everything in the boot. That means zero delta in the binding. And since I regularly ski 4 different skis, I'd like all of the bindings to be the same.

BTW, it was David McPhail who found significant differences in net ramp (ramp plus delta) of a fraction of a degree.

Mike
Seems pretty easy to purchase 4 of the same bindings, and tweak the bonding ramp with shims if needed. Most of my skiing is on Attack 13/16, and Freeflex 16/16x bindings and a couple days on PRD 12s... and 22 designs outlaw X. Ski testing is on pretty much every demo made. I notice the tune more than the binding unless the binding doesn't function.... yes, that's happened too. I don't get along with my AT boots at all... much too upright, but sometimes you make do or do without. But I speak only for myself.
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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Seems pretty easy to purchase 4 of the same bindings, and tweak the bonding ramp with shims if needed. Most of my skiing is on Attack 13/16, and Freeflex 16/16x bindings and a couple days on PRD 12s... and 22 designs outlaw X. Ski testing is on pretty much every demo made. I notice the tune more than the binding unless the binding doesn't function.... yes, that's happened too. I don't get along with my AT boots at all... much too upright, but sometimes you make do or do without. But I speak only for myself.
Well, that might be a reasonable approach should one be skiing more or less the same terrain on all skis. But I look for different bindings in depending on application. My GS and slalom skis are mounted on plates, my all mountain skis have Attack 14s and for my terrain ski I ski Look pivots. Leverage on groomer skis, minimum stack height on terrain skis. And resilience in the terrain binding.

Back to the Look numbers, if they are measured over a 300mm BSL, then those pretty neutral numbers look a lot different when you start applying that delta to my 255 BSL. For many others, particularly women, it's worse.

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markojp

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255.... you mean 25.5 cm mondo, roughly 293-296 bsl? I guess I don't understand why one needs different binding manufactures in the quiver if ramp angle consistancy is paramount with the exception of plated/system front side and race skis. Brake widths are easy to deal with. FWIW the freeflex bindings are readily shimmed. Honestly, if I jump on a PRD Titan, a Marker'ed Blizzard HRC, a Freeflexed iSpeed Pro, Look'd Hero Master, or Wardened Stöckli AR, I don't feel any difference. Again, that's just me. Others ' mileage may vary and that's a-okay!

FWIW, I'm 119% more like to ski one ski across the entire mountain rather that multiple different skis across one terrain type/pitch. Variable snow and crazy terrain variation pretty much sums up the PNW, and there's rarely time to change skis.

Cheers and here's to being another day closer to being on snow!

:)

Late edit:
( And Mike, I agree about small boot sizes and binding delta... please don't take any of what I've written personally. I'm probably an outlier in regards to all of this, and agree too that's it's cool Phil is publishing this info.)
 
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fatbob

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In a 317mm boot I find the delta in a Marker Duke (gen 2) much more uncomfortable than a wormscrew Griffon demo, the bindings I ski the most. Rossi Axial 2 type/ Look equivalent also was fine as were Attacks
 
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Mike King

Mike King

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255.... you mean 25.5 cm mondo, roughly 293-296 bsl? I guess I don't understand why one needs different binding manufactures in the quiver if ramp angle consistancy is paramount with the exception of plated/system front side and race skis. Brake widths are easy to deal with. FWIW the freeflex bindings are readily shimmed. Honestly, if I jump on a PRD Titan, a Marker'ed Blizzard HRC, a Freeflexed iSpeed Pro, Look'd Hero Master, or Wardened Stöckli AR, I don't feel any difference. Again, that's just me. Others ' mileage may vary and that's a-okay!

FWIW, I'm 119% more like to ski one ski across the entire mountain rather that multiple different skis across one terrain type/pitch. Variable snow and crazy terrain variation pretty much sums up the PNW, and there's rarely time to change skis.

Cheers and here's to being another day closer to being on snow!

:)

Late edit:
( And Mike, I agree about small boot sizes and binding delta... please don't take any of what I've written personally. I'm probably an outlier in regards to all of this, and agree too that's it's cool Phil is publishing this info.)
There may be all sorts of ways of dealing with this from shimming bindings to boot work. But the fact is that there still is no information out there about what the delta is in these bindings. None. It makes the whole process of sorting out these issues much harder than it needs to be.

What impact does binding delta and boot ramp have on skiing? It affects your fore/aft balance. It also affects the relationship between your shin and the front of the boot. I think most of us believe fore/aft balance to be a critical aspect of skiing.

So, rather than having those of us who find delta to be a big issue guessing in the dark when we go to purchase bindings, why don't we at least get some information out there so that customers can make informed decisions? And I don't think you can easily take a binding out of it's box and measure delta without mounting it to a ski.

While there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for my position in this thread, in our Technical Foundations course in PSIA-RM last fall there were quite a number of instructors who wanted to know what the delta was of various bindings.

Ok, I've said my piece. Rant over.

With one postscript that I'll return to -- there's lots of places to get reviews of skis on the internet. There's no place to get information on binding delta. @Philpug, maybe you think the market looking for information on delta is too small to go to the effort to measure and collect it, but I'm just pointing out an unmet need that would be a differentiator in the marketplace.

Mike
 

crgildart

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As someone who prefers a negative delta (toes higher) and skis a Raptor with rather significant forward lean, I'm guessing I'd like a positive delta with a boot with a lesser forward lean. I doubt I'm tuned in enough to tell a degree or two but I do notice when I'm heel high too far.
Remember Earth Shoes?
 

François Pugh

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Hmmm.....
I see that Pugski tells us a value for Delta
https://www.pugski.com/threads/2021-look-bindings.20769/
For example the Delta for the NX10 GW is 0.1 degrees.
But should not that 0.1 degrees depend on the distance between the heel and toe. Should not the bindings have the same height difference between heel and toe regardless of boot sole length, but a different delta.
What am I not getting here?
 

Erik Timmerman

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Yes, I've always understood binding delta to be the difference in millimeters between the height of the toe and that of the heel. I measure the whole stack ski/plate/binding with a caliper since plates and skis can taper from tip to tail.
 

cantunamunch

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Makes sense to me.

I should also say that measuring binding delta without considering ski flex makes about as much sense as measuring bike geo without sag correction.
 

markojp

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There may be all sorts of ways of dealing with this from shimming bindings to boot work. But the fact is that there still is no information out there about what the delta is in these bindings. None. It makes the whole process of sorting out these issues much harder than it needs to be.

What impact does binding delta and boot ramp have on skiing? It affects your fore/aft balance. It also affects the relationship between your shin and the front of the boot. I think most of us believe fore/aft balance to be a critical aspect of skiing.

So, rather than having those of us who find delta to be a big issue guessing in the dark when we go to purchase bindings, why don't we at least get some information out there so that customers can make informed decisions? And I don't think you can easily take a binding out of it's box and measure delta without mounting it to a ski.

While there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for my position in this thread, in our Technical Foundations course in PSIA-RM last fall there were quite a number of instructors who wanted to know what the delta was of various bindings.

Ok, I've said my piece. Rant over.

With one postscript that I'll return to -- there's lots of places to get reviews of skis on the internet. There's no place to get information on binding delta. @Philpug, maybe you think the market looking for information on delta is too small to go to the effort to measure and collect it, but I'm just pointing out an unmet need that would be a differentiator in the marketplace.

Mike
Mike, the rant wasn't necessary. Phil published the info. If you'd have asked me, I could have told you off the top of my head all the Tyrolia and Look product and asked colleagues for the others. I train instructors and fit boots, and yes, I'm always looking at boot binding set ups as potential problem areas. There are relatively few in PSIA who know the answers to what you're looking for, but your best trainers should. Even then, unless they're spending alot of time in a shop, they aren't going to know the nuances of each model and make of boot or binding, nor the nuances of out of the box fit unless they hang out and physically look at them AND put them on. Hill reps might know their brand, but likely not others. It's not a conspiracy, and in my earlier posts I whole heartedly agreed that publishing binding delta and heights is very informative, and yes, can be critical for some skiers.
 
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