"Left Out in the Cold: Exploring the Vulnerabilities of Seasonal Workers in the Ski Industry"

[HardDaysNight]

^^^The main point is that seasonal workers don’t receive those benefits. Do you actually know what qualifies someone as eligible for Medicaid? The article states that, in fact, most employers pay above minimum wage. There is no defined “living wage”. There are many reasons to deplore the conduct of ski industry employers but claiming that taxpayers subsidize them is incorrect.

 

[crgildart]

^^^The main point is that seasonal workers don’t receive those benefits. Do you actually know what qualifies someone as eligible for Medicaid? The article states that, in fact, most employers pay above minimum wage. There is no defined “living wage”. There are many reasons to deplore the conduct of ski industry employers but claiming that taxpayers subsidize them is incorrect.

Guess again.. The poverty level as defined by food stamp eligibility is actually above what minimum wage is in most states. Prove that nobody working at the ski hill doesn't qualify for food stamps. It depends on how many kids they have, other income, etc. Migrant farm seasonal workers also can qualify for it if their monthly income is below the threshold...which again is ABOVE what minimum wage pays in most states when they have kids..
https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/a-quick-guide-to-snap-eligibility-and-benefits

 

[HardDaysNight]

Did you read what you quoted? For an individual the monthly income trigger amounts to about $8 an hour for a 40 hr work week. Also can’t have assets amounting to more than $2250. I suppose some seasonal ski employees qualify but it can’t be very many. Many of the most poorly compensated are H2B and J-1 kids from outside the US. They don’t qualify at all. Seems like a stretch to claim US taxpayers subsidize resort owners and you have absolutely no evidence it’s true.

 

[HDSkiing]

For the last many years I’ve worked full time for a ski area ski school. These days I even do some of the hiring, training clinics etc. I’ve never felt “vulnerable” but rather blessed! I mean I get to hang out in the Rocky Mountains with people who are on vacation and we’re skiing AND I get paid to do it!

When I hire someone I’m upfront on what they can expect to make and always caution first year staff to not depend on this as your sole income. Usually they are more interested in the give and take, free season pass, use of the locker rooms, improving their skiing and wait for it...getting paid to ski.

Full disclosure, I made money in an earlier career that allows me to do this now, BUT even so I’m paid well, more than twice the minimum wage. Sure if your brand new, with no experience and no certs you will be paid less, but even that is above minimum here.

There is an apprenticeship of sorts in teaching skiing, there simply is no substitution for time and effort. Train, get your certs, earn some seniority, be entertaining and fun to ski with and you will work all the time. On busy weekends and holidays $200 a day in tips is common among the experienced staff.

Should the ski school instead send you out with whoever’s turn it is because we had to guarantee hours? Or would you like to be able to request the instructor that you had so much fun with last time?

Reading the paper, well written as it is, left me scratching my head. My job starts in early Nov and ends in late April most years. I knew that going in. I also knew that it’s piecemeal work, we have to have customers and snow to make money. Those have been the rules for ever.

I love what I do and generally have had so much fun doing it that the issues mentioned in the article are non starters, at least for me.

 

[Eleeski]

I was listening today to an NPR spot about the struggles of artists making their way in New York. I doubt any plagiarism exists but it was almost the exact same story as the article. Starving artists have been around since I was a liftie.

People with the talent of dedicated skiers or artists would be expected to be successful financially. Reality is crueler than our ideals and the artists and skiers struggle to get by. And get stories about their plight.

Lifties are way better off then say a McDonald's worker in San Diego (the second worst place in the USA for cost of living). Lifties get to ski!

I have never seen a liftie (or artist) that is actually starving. Our safety nets in society work quite well. We place too much emphasis on dollars - especially with people making lifestyle choices that don't prioritize money.

Last year I came close to applying for a job at Squaw. I can afford it now. But I was too busy fixing the toilets at the rentals to apply. Made money off the rentals but I wonder if I chose wisely.

Eric

 

[fatbob]

I don't see how you can have one of these threads without it getting political.

I note that not many job markets are distorted by people who have retired from good coroporate gigs or otherwise banked savings elsewhere bolstering the employee pool e.g. I hear of very few people looking forward to pursuing their passion for itinerant fruit picking in retirement.

 

[Philpug]

I don't see how you can have one of these threads without it getting political.

Very easy, you don't make it about politics..it comes down it it being a choice by the worker and their choice to accept part time or seasonal work. There are some members here who have graduated from very high level schools like Colby and Columbia that have chosen a road of destitute by working as instructors. No one forced them, it had nothing to do with politics or political affiliation, they wanted to ski instruct and I am sure they had no grandeur that they would get financially rich doing it but more spiritually rich.

Part if the issue here is also the advent of the AirBnB's and VBRO's. Properties that used to be employee housing where three, four, six resort employees lived in are now rental units either weekly or seasonal and no longer an option for resort employees. If you owned these properties, you would look at this as a viable alternative to renting to a multitude of tenants by getting the same amount of money in two or three weeks plus without the wear of "lowly" seasonal employees. We talked about this in Can You Still Double Down on Being a Ski Bum in Reno? A quote from that thread....

@jwaltz @Andrew are young guys who've been having a difficult time finding reasonable housing in Reno. That could be a sign of the housing issue working its way into outlying areas, or it could be that the outlying areas are seeing other forces that drive pricing up.

Since that thread, another member here saw what was happening and has purchased a few houses to be used as rentals to these kids and others.

 

[fatbob]

Very easy, you don't make it about politics..it comes down it it being a choice by the worker and their choice to accept part time or seasonal work. There are some members here who have graduated from very high level schools like Colby and Columbia that have chosen a road of destitute by working as instructors. No one forced them, it had nothing to do with politics or political affiliation, they wanted to ski instruct and I am sure they had no grandeur that they would get financially rich doing it but more spiritually rich.

I don't disagree with anything you've written about personal choice but do differ on the meaning of "political". Everything in life is small p "political" to a greater or lesser extent from having babies (how many and how much should the state be expected to support. educate etc) to the dying process (who picks up the tab for end of life care and how humane and dignified is it). So when presented with an article like this we are invited to take a position somewhere along the spectrum from "it's terrible something should be done" to "bunch of whiners, I made it, they should suck it up and crack on".

I'm not offering much of a personal opinion on it other than what I know of US ski towns, cost of living, short term rental market etc implying to me that sooner or later there will be a wall hit in staffing levels in certain places as the people who work the low wage jobs will just not be able to live in a reasonable vicinity. I guess that's fine if those that have made it step in to fill the void or everyone accepts that the industry ecosystem has played out to its natural zenith and everything can be expected to get a little bit worse in general thereafter.

 

[Eleeski]

I hear of very few people looking forward to pursuing their passion for itinerant fruit picking in retirement.

Visit Napa someday. Lots of retired execs grubbing around some fruit vines.

Poverty isn't always political. But it can always be spun for political reasons.

No way are lifties or our population "worse in general" than when I was a liftie. Life is better for humanity than at any time in history. Enjoy it - as a liftie if that's your passion.

Eric

 

[coskigirl]

Sorry I kind of posted then ran without giving any opinion. Finals are fast approaching.

Anyhow, my thinking when I posted this is that I think many would like to see the lower level employees make enough to survive in a ski town. Perhaps without working two or three jobs. But at the same time we (the collective "we", not pointing fingers at anyone in particular) want lower prices on lift tickets, food, etc. Is there anyway we can influence a change in the industry to balance these issues? I don't know the answers but I thought I'd share my reasoning for posting.

 

[crgildart]

If you're doing it for the fringe benefits more than the money you probably don't have to worry about being "left out in the cold". Betting at least 90% of those folks, present eleski company included, probably had/have parents and/or other assets available as a last resort safety net should things go downhill unexpectedly there. See what I did there? I think the situation surrounding the exchange students who traveled here thinking they had jobs in WV at the resort formerly known as Timberline 4S are a much better example of folks truly doing it to try to "earn a living" rather than living a dream or taking a gap year or two before getting serious.

 

[Ski&ride]

was listening today to an NPR spot about the struggles of artists making their way in New York. I doubt any plagiarism exists but it was almost the exact same story as the article. Starving artists have been around since I was a liftie.

But if working at minimum wage and paying sky high rent is a rite of passage for ski bum as well as artists, how come we still need to import workers from South America to work in ski industry?

I don’t hear much about the need for foreign workers to staff the broadway venues for example.

The way I see it, there’s a shortage of staff in the ski industry. But instead of paying more appropriate wages to attract workers, the industry choose to import foreign workers from under developed countries to keep the wage level low. The willingness of semi-retired baby boomers to step in at the unsustainable wage level is irrelevant. They helped alleviate the staffing shortages somewhat. But the foreign worker loophole is helping to suppress the wage level.

A situation NOT mirrored in the artist scene.

 

[pais alto]

...The willingness of semi-retired baby boomers to step in at the unsustainable wage level is irrelevant...

Exactly.

What I don’t understand is the “Tough shit, either harden TF up or get another job” attitude that (presumably well-to-do) people have about resort workers that would like to make a decent living. I can’t imagine what significant difference it would make to the people here if resort workers were paid a living wage.

 

[Talisman]

What I don’t understand is the “Tough shit, either harden TF up or get another job” attitude that (presumably well-to-do) people have about resort workers that would like to make a decent living.

Not defending the attitude, but I grew in a household where my parents left out the expletives but espoused the sentiment. They had lived through the depression of the 1930's and old dad spent his teens & earl twenties getting the Empire of Japan to capitulate and mom made parachutes in a defense plant waiting for him. My parents had hardened up, knew how to manage money, valued education and worked very hard. While I didn't always appreciate it growing up, their examples inspired me to persevere to do my best no matter the circumstances.

I do remember in the "old days" what are called lifties now were adult men wearing cow manure and hydraulic oil spattered overalls obviously supplementing farming or ranching income by swinging chairs. What ever the pay was, those workers found it worth their while to swing chairs in the cold. I haven't this type of resort worker in a generation or more.

Happy May Day. Here's to wages rising rising and housing costs becoming affordable for those willing to do the work.

 

[Core2]

so how much should lifties get paid? id be okay with them having a tip bucket and i'd tip for good music and efficient cattle herding.

 

[RachelV]

Would also be curious to know if there’s a meaningful pay difference for lifties at a place like Aspen (which is known for better instructor pay, I believe) vs elsewhere.

 

[scott43]

And it's not just lifties..what do Starbucks people get paid in Aspen? Do they complain about finding staff? I know people in the restaurant business who complain they can't get staff. They could..they just pay $12/hr and nobody wants to work for that..there are better jobs. So they start asking for foreign workers on special visas so they can pay them even less. Just because you open a restaurant doesn't mean you deserve to be well rewarded.

 

[HardDaysNight]

so how much should lifties get paid?

I really don’t know. And neither does anyone else here. That’s why, in free societies, market forces tend to produce a consensus valuation of what labor of all kinds is worth. To be blunt, it’s hard to argue the market in this case is wrong - it’s not a very skilled job, doesn’t require much education or training and there is a sufficient supply of people willing to work, without compulsion, for what they’re being offered.

 

[scott43]

I really don’t know. And neither does anyone else here. That’s why, in free societies, market forces tend to produce a consensus valuation of what labor of all kinds is worth. To be blunt, it’s hard to argue the market in this case is wrong - it’s not a very skilled job, doesn’t require much education or training and there is a sufficient supply of people willing to work, without compulsion, for what they’re being offered.

Apparently not as they want foreign worker visas for workers. That is not market forces.

 

[pais alto]

A fellow I worked with on my local patrol in NM got >50% pay raise, benefits, year-round work (trail crew) and an equipment allowance by going to one of the Aspen mountains to patrol. Coincidentally, the Aspen patrols are unionized, and very, very professional.

I really don’t know. And neither does anyone else here. That’s why, in free societies, market forces tend to produce a consensus valuation of what labor of all kinds is worth. To be blunt, it’s hard to argue the market in this case is wrong - it’s not a very skilled job, doesn’t require much education or training and there is a sufficient supply of people willing to work, without compulsion, for what they’re being offered.

I don’t think pure market forces are in effect at ski resorts...or many other places. And I wasn’t just talking about lifties- I was also including patrol, instructors, and all the other mountain employees. Patrol and instructors don’t seem to fall into your unskilled, low education and training category.

And I still don’t see why people are defending ski resort employees being paid a less than living wage, except that they’re defending some kind of doctrine or ideology.