Latest on Saddleback Sale and Reopening

[KevinF]

My experience with Saddleback is limited to one two day outing there at one of the New England Gatherings a few years back. Just a couple random notes:

• The Maine gathering was probably the least attendance we've had at a Gathering -- and that's among pretty dedicated skiers who hang out on forums, etc. Most of the attendees were the Maine residents. Now, I'm possibly the world's worst salesman but If even dedicated skiers need some prodding to make the hike to Saddleback...?
• The night before I drove up to Tony's place near Portland and we car pooled over to Saddleback in the morning. The roads were a bit of a mess from a big storm the day before, but damn, it was still a hike to get there.
• I figured Rangeley was a decent tourist destination during the summer months, so I thought there would be various lodging opportunities up there... Until I started looking and realizing that there's really not much there.
• We were at Saddleback on Friday / Saturday and Gathering Magic brought us a ridiculous powder day. And still it was pretty empty. I don't think we had a bad run in two days. I can see Friday being quiet (digging out, work, etc.) but I figured Saturday would be mobbed. Nope. I have to imagine Sugarloaf was.

I guess my point -- to backup many of Muleski's comments -- is that if forum devotees who talk about skiing all year long can't be troubled to make it and if Maine residents don't bother even for off-the-charts powder days... who is going to come?

I regularly ski Stowe, and I regularly meet people there who have made ridiculous drives from the mid-Atlantic, or Toronto, or... Driving times that far eclipse flight times to Colorado, Utah, etc.

 

[Wilhelmson]

If I can get to Jay in less than 4 hours or Sugarloaf in less time than Saddleback there's not a compelling reason to go to Saddleback except for less crowds, which are negated and caused by the slow chairlifts. All those new apartments in Portland and Boston must have some skiers looking to buy into a stable area. Even at fire sale the risk/reward must be out of line.

 

[Muleski]

We lived in the Portland area for a number of years. When we moved there, we already had skied and owned at Sugarloaf for many years. We lived on a street with 12 homes. Seven of us owned property at Sugarloaf. One at Sunday River. Sugarloaf's big base of owners are from greater Portland. Also a lot from Bangor. Then Massachusetts.
Whether justified or not, logical or not, Sugarloaf has legions of raving fans. Other that the few day trippers who do not have season passes, who would give Saddleback a shot?

Saddleback had struggled since it opened, 50 plus years ago. Seriously struggled. I'm reasonably sure that nobody has run it profitably. I think it has been foreclosed on twice. Saddleback has never pulled skiers in any real numbers from Sugarloaf. Quite sure of that.

The location is just a killer. The perception of the location is the real problem. People think it is a longer drive than to Sugarloaf. People who have experience at both swear that it's always colder at Saddleback. All sorts of "objections" pop up. The lifts are really ancient. The actual distance from the mountain to town. The fact that the town is so quiet in the winter. The "sled town", snowmachine reputation. It's almost like piling on.

We have friends who own condos at Saddleback. They bought knowing the history of the place, and felt that all had changed. They are now hoping to see it reopen, with some optimism so that they can sell and at least cover their mortgages. Hope so.

When the Berrys were in the press, discussing the need for the new lift, there was some chatter that a couple of local banks might join forces to finance it. Mainly because they held the mortgages on a huge percentage of the condos up at the mountain, all of which would presumably be underwater, with basically zero market without the ski area. What's better, risking a $3Mil loan on a lift or suddenly having the losses and keys to dozens of condos at a former ski area?

Anyone speculating on a condo purchase there, now, IMO, would need to be off the charts as a risk taker. Having owned ski area property for 35 years {and my parents for 30+ years before that}, I've seen plenty of ups and downs, even without these dynamics. Owning at the mountain is not owning on the lake...at all.

The skiing can be great. Really fun. No question about that. Hope it works out for the best when this dust settles.

One of my friends joked that if there was an episode of Shark Tank filmed , where the sharks were all ski area investors, and a prospective buyer piitched Saddleback, you'd get feel for things quickly. Immediate "all outs."
Just a tough business.

No more thoughts from me. We'll see if the deal closes. Sure hope so.

 

[x10003q]

Looks to me like people need to accept that Majella isn't going to happen anymore than 200,000 Montrealers are going to show up to ski Saddleback.

There are so many great skiing options in Quebec for Montreal skiers, I find it amazing that Canadians cross the border at all. Les Otten is selling this Montreal bs at the Balsams right now. Here are some rough travel times from Montreal to US ski areas, not including the border crossing:
Saddleback 4:00
Sunday River 3:45
Killington 3:30
Burke 2:45
Sugarbush 2:30
Stowe 2:30
Smuggs 2:30
Jay 2:00
and here are 2 that New Englanders often forget:
Whiteface 2:00
Gore 3:00
The other issue is the Canadian dollar is worth $.78 US and has been for some time.

 

[Muleski]

Great points ^^^^^.

The border crossings can {not always} be very time consuming. I know one NCAA college team that used to train 3 days a week in CA, and stopped as the border crossing was just tedious.

Exchange rate is pushing many of our friends to Canada for long weekends and vacations. So many options right in Quebec.

 

[Crank]

I skied Saddleback for a weekend about 9 or 10 years ago. It was just my teenage son and I and we stayed at a motel in Rangely. Holy sled head batman. I couldn't get to sleep until after 2AM Friday night with all the sleds ripping by. Saturday night was quieter, but I could have slept through anything at that point I was so tired.

 

[Lauren]

I've been told that Black Mountain in Rumford is doing well, and that doesn't help Saddleback.

I recently heard this as well. They definitely acquired a lot of Saddleback's customers over the past couple years, and who knows if they'd go back if Saddleback reopened. Even though it's a negative impact for Saddleback, it's definitely a positive situation for this small mountain that serves the locals. Maybe the silver lining of this whole thing.

I feel like Saddleback is caught in the middle of the big two, Sunday River and Sugarloaf, and the smaller local hills Black, Abram, Shawnee, Camden Snow Bowl, etc. They're big enough to try to compete with the big guys, but too small to be equal competition. I feel like they operate like the little guys, and try to compete with the big guns. Then they're too big to really compete with the small guys that can offer cheaper tickets, lessons, food options, etc. They're a Division II school playing in DI.

 

[Muleski]

@elemmac,I think there is a LOT to your post.
Black has developed into a great community ski area. They have benefited from some nice grants. At any rate, it is a great small area. ItMs reasonable, and fun. For many people for whom Saddleback as a day trip was an option, Black works. Like people near Rumford.

Mt. Abram is doing well. Owners do not need it to feed their families. Again a great day trip option, particularly for families. Why drive the extra from Lewiston or Auburn?

Shawnee has just killed it since Chet Homer took it over 20 or so years ago. It's a great, short day trip from greater Portland. Maybe an hour versus 2:15 at best to Saddleback.

Then of course Sunday River is closer for almost everybody. Sugarloaf is in reality the same drive time for anybody Augusta south, closer north.

The question from 1960 on was where would the people come from.

It was developed at a time when ski areas were being thrown up all over the country. The glory days of skier growth. I don't think a whole lot of thought went into the market. Yeah they may have thought about Sugarloaf. Should have.

Sunday River was pre Les Otten, smaller than Saddleback. We know how that worked out...real well in terms of skier days!

It's a tough proposition in a tough business. Really super well intended family. Sad how unfolded for them.

 

[Lauren]

Black has developed into a great community ski area. They have benefited from some nice grants. At any rate, it is a great small area. ItMs reasonable, and fun. For many people for whom Saddleback as a day trip was an option, Black works. Like people near Rumford.

The other day I was reading a decent amount about Black, after talking with a co-worker about how well they did last year and some of their plans for new trails, glades, etc. I found it especially cool how involved Sunday River is in helping to keep them open. They donated a bunch of snowmaking pipe installed this past year, and had been matching crowd funding (up to a certain amount) recently. https://www.chisholmskiclub.org/index.php/80-homepage/new-events/142-help-save-black-mountain. I'm sure a decent amount is about tax write-offs and whatnot...but regardless, I thought it was nice to see Sunday River as more than just a corporation, but also supporting the ski community.

Why drive the extra from Lewiston or Auburn?

Plus...Lost Valley is right there. Not nearly the size of even Abram, but still...right in their backyard.

 

[Muleski]

I'd pretty much lost track and forgotten about Lost Valley. Back in operation? When I was in college in the 70's Bates actually hosted college races there. Hard to believe. Lot of damn area racing then.

Just made me think that Kent's Hill had a nice, small area.

Yes, Boyne/Sunday River's support of Black has been great. The Libra Foundation, I think, has been a big benefactor. I think a lot of SR's employees come from the Rumford area, BTW.

It's good stuff..

 

[Lauren]

I'd pretty much lost track and forgotten about Lost Valley. Back in operation? When I was in college in the 70's Bates actually hosted college races there. Hard to believe. Lot of damn area racing then.

Yea, they're still kicking. I could be mistaken, but I believe they only closed for a year a few years back before locals rallied together and brought it back to life. They may have closed prior to that as well?

 

[Tony S]

Black Mountain in Rumford is not remotely comparable to Saddleback in terms of terrain or snow. Just laying that out there for people who may not have first hand acquaintance with both.

 

[Tony S]

For that matter, neither is Sunday River.

 

[Muleski]

No question about the terrain comparison, @Tony S. Not close. Agree 110%! But, Black has attracted a lot of local families in Western Maine who may have in the past skied at a place like Saddleback. It's cheap, affordable in every way, and had a nice family feel.

As some may know, this is a part of the state where families need to stretch a dollar, pretty universally.

From what I have been told for years, both by folks buying the reasearch as well as those who were commissioned to conduct it, there are only so many skier days that are Maine skiers. It's a finite number. The real growth has to come from New Hampshire or Massachusetts, for the most part.

So even if Black pulls 30K skiers or less, those people aren't driving to Saddleback. No, Titcomb with it's 125 feet of verical does not compete with Saddleback either. But it's cheap, gets kids on snow, families outside.

Saddleback has NO chance of making it, under any circumstances unless they grow skier days "a lot." Sitting idle pushes people to try other things. Some will return, some will not, some are on the fence. Depends on the numbers.

There is a reason why the sale brought not one offer from the industry. Despite being either quietly or actively on the market for close to five years. I've heard people in the industry explain why it is a non starter for them. Which pains a lot of people.

Great skiing. No question. Just so, so many tough challenges.

 

[Lauren]

For that matter, neither is Sunday River.

You're right, not comparable at all. Sunday River's open.


Too soon?

 

[aveski]

Looks like they are trying to scrounge up funding. BTW Muleski, I graduated from Kents Hill in '72. I spent a lot of time on the ski hill there.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/sad...-committed-but-the-money-isnt-there/493729130

 

[Muleski]

Looks like they are trying to scrounge up funding. BTW Muleski, I graduated from Kents Hill in '72. I spent a lot of time on the ski hill there.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/sad...-committed-but-the-money-isnt-there/493729130

Small world. I think I know a classmate or two. Readfield, ME to KY....wrong direction for skiing!

Thanks for posting the link.

Yes, all sorts of doom and gloom on this. I've been told that if one has a few hours to get online and research what the Majella group really has accomplished or built, in Australia let alone Maine, it raises a few questions and eyebrows.

I don't like piling on. The Berrys are nice people, and I hope they can put this behind them. The area is just too nice to stay shuttered, but it's a very ugly business proposition, though, IMO.

Much more drama that I had hoped for with this.

 

[KevinF]

What is the physical condition of the trails at Saddleback at this time?

I've hiked various ski mountains during the summer months, most often Wachusett here in Massachusetts. The trails get remarkably overgrown -- two foot high grass, small bushes / plants starting, etc -- in just the few months between when the snow melts and when the lawn mowers come through again in the Fall. I would think if nobody has touched the trails in two plus years at Saddleback that they would quickly need more then just a lawnmower to clear them out...

 

[Tony S]

Looks like they are trying to scrounge up funding. BTW Muleski, I graduated from Kents Hill in '72. I spent a lot of time on the ski hill there.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/local/sad...-committed-but-the-money-isnt-there/493729130

I like the way the author of this piece appears to be trying to find out what's actually up. I like the way she puts it out there. Honestly one of the things that infuriates me about this state is the way people tend to be so damn respectful that the only way you can know what the heck is going on is if you've got an inside line on things. . Transparency is not one of our strong suits, even in the media.

 

[Tony S]

Readfield, ME to KY....wrong direction for skiing!

Ave keeps his hand in, don't you worry.