lateral weight shift vs rocking the ski fore-aft

[geepers]

What drills?
For the other, we can drop it. You're ok with the ends justifying saying anything. I don't think so in education, especially if one's job is to teach the teachers. The concept is to create some understanding, not confusion.
Just a little critical thinking by the team could have changed this.
But, that's my other issue with demo teams. It's mostly about the skiing. If you can bs your way through a presentation, ok. Exhibit A there.

Ok, we seem to be stuck here.

Drills:
1. Get over it - posted by @JESinstr above. Think Shiffrin nails it in her commentary.

2. High 5 - keeping both skis on the snow but pretending some-one is standing uphill 2 ski lengths past transition and the skier has to extend along the skis to give them a high 5 whilst commencing the turn. (Have to be careful skier does not get over-active with the upper body and arm with this one - then again most drills have side effects.)

2. Skating like:

3. Practically anything with a lifted inner ski - if moving in too quickly lifted ski will end up back on the snow

4. Inside out turns - disconnecting the new outside ski from the snow teaches patience. With aversion therapy if not.

5. The no drill drill. Bit long to fully explain but this vid hits most of the points. Early transfer of balance to the new outside ski by flexing the old outside leg and starting to extend the new inside leg. Lifting the new inside heel means having a good platform to balance upon and no way can we move inside too soon otherwise we can't lift the heel.

@Mike King , yep, I expect most of the CSIA L4s I've ever met would agree with the intent. They may or may not agree with the wording as none of 'em mentions the P word.

Never met JDS however he seems to ski pretty well and note his point at 0:48.

Comments re NZ video, separate centre of mass (CoM) and ski paths and weight distribution between skis.
It all depends on what type of turn and what type of release/transition.

You can hang onto the old turn until your centre of mass (CoM) and the skis are both travelling across the hill.

You can also, or rather instead, release the CoM from the turn far earlier (I prefer to do it with an early-release cross under transition), but not release the skis from their path so that your body will travel quickly inside the new turn under its own momentum. It's fun to play with this and see how much earlier (closer to the old apex) you can release the CoM while seeing how much farther up the hill you can continue the skis path without tripping yourself up. I imagine it would be no fun if you pushed the game too far - I'm too chicken to push it that far (given myself a fright or two, but never tripped up).

We're not talking about traversing across the hill between turns. The aim is to keep turns linked. (In CSIA L3 assessment that will get you pinged.)

Otherwise you are on track in that intent matters. I don't see a conflict between this bit of NZSIA and, say, the infinity move. It takes a certain level of competency before we can flex through transition and time the extension of the new outside leg such that we aren't pushing but we are keeping engagement. It was some time in Feb this year when I fully 'got' infinity. It's a wonderful feeling when you've ripped a good turn and now the skis are still pointing away from the fall line, our brain is taking a more direct path down the hill but we know it's ok 'cause the skis are hooked up. And here they are already coming back.

(Of course the post-ski vid means a return to earth... life's a beach.)

 

[Tony S]

Limiting (in most situations) = sending the CoM somewhere
Performance (in most situations) = ... allowing the feet to move relative to the CoM.

Mike

Brilliantly concise. I love this.

 

[François Pugh]

We're not talking about traversing across the hill between turns. The aim is to keep turns linked. (In CSIA L3 assessment that will get you pinged.)

Thanks for pointing that out. I thought it was obvious enough to go without saying, but I guess obvious is a relative thing. To be clear, I'm pointing out that when (and how) you release the CoM to travel freely along its path and when (and how) you release the skis from their turn makes a big difference on what you need to do to get to the proper inside position on the next (linked) turn.

BTW it always takes me a run or three to get it right when switching between SL skis and GS skis after skiing SL exclusively for month. I always end up too far inside at first. Switching between SL and antique SGs I haven't skied in a year can take me an hour or more to feel comfortable.

 

[James]

Establish, Commit, Patience, Patience

Would we say there's a difference between the move demonstrated in the drill and the way she skis?
Which is?
(Not that she's doing the drill, those are Burke students.)

2), 4) Inside out turns

2)- Skate to shape to short turn is what we call your first vid pretty much.
4) We call them " White Pass Turns". It used to be a requirement. I'd say that it was made such a mess of it was dropped. People were always confused by the name. I wonder if the inside/out name had been used if it would still be around. Replaced by outside to outside ski.

We're not talking about traversing across the hill between turns. The aim is to keep turns linked. (In CSIA L3 assessment that will get you pinged.)

By linked, do they specifically mean outside ski in in the snow at all times, outside is engaged early?
Because, you can always find a turn in say Sebastien Michel's skiing that violates those. And, uh that's pretty good skiing. What happened to him? I always preferred his skiing to JF's, though you didn't see much. Maybe I preferred it because he used extension turns at times instead of endless retraction turns.
This was always a fun video. Needed more.

Thanks for pointing that out. I thought it was obvious enough to go without saying, but I guess obvious is a relative thing. To be clear, I'm pointing out that when (and how) you release the CoM to travel freely along its path and when (and how) you release the skis from their turn makes a big difference on what you need to do to get to the proper inside position on the next (linked) turn.

BTW it always takes me a run or three to get it right when switching between SL skis and GS skis after skiing SL exclusively for month. I always end up too far inside at first. Switching between SL and antique SGs I haven't skied in a year can take me an hour or more to feel comfortable.

Some of this may be semantics. I tend to view the movement from way inside the last turn to inside the new as transition. Not just edging.

I think this is what the point is? What Dyksterhouse points out at 2:30 in this video. It's hardly the Burke up and over position ski jump traverse, but a tiny pause perhaps. Or not. Maybe just making sure you've got engagement. Though some would refer and discussed this as letting the feet get out ahead while you go the other way. (On the French Curve )

 

[Tony S]

Fascinating thread. Mostly. Kinda.

I'm not anywhere near all the way through it. Even so I gotta pause and say: @James, as interesting as your MANY posts here are, it's really showing that you need to get back on snow. How's the back?

 

[JESinstr]

Would we say there's a difference between the move demonstrated in the drill and the way she skis?
Which is?
(Not that she's doing the drill, those are Burke students.)

James, If you take Shiffrin's 1st and 3rd turns (2nd turn is retraction) Id say there is only a difference in dynamics and intensity. If you focus on release and initiation, both move forward to the new ski and in direction of travel. Both use inside leg extension to move to the old inside uphill edge in order to complete the finish of the old turn. There is an observed difference in the patient roll over of the new outside foot in the drill video vs Shiffrin's more rapid move but one is in a race course where timing and making gates is everything and the other is not because they are focused on ingraining movement patterns.

These movement patterns are (IMO) key to good solid carved turns. They are not the movement patterns for everything all the time as the second turn shows.

BTW, Never get tired of watching Sebastien in that vid! And if you want to be taken to school on changing movement patterns view from 1:20 to 1:30.[/QUOTE]

 

[geepers]

Would we say there's a difference between the move demonstrated in the drill and the way she skis?

There's many drills that are intended to teach a movement pattern or an aspect of skiing where there is a significant divergence from normal. Don't see anyone using javelin turns except when they are doing a drill. Would that invalidate javelin drills?

4) We call them " White Pass Turns". It used to be a requirement. I'd say that it was made such a mess of it was dropped. People were always confused by the name. I wonder if the inside/out name had been used if it would still be around. Replaced by outside to outside ski.

Started a topic in Ski School forum on inside out turns. Must add something to that because another benefit occurred to me.

By linked, do they specifically mean outside ski in in the snow at all times, outside is engaged early?
Because, you can always find a turn in say Sebastien Michel's skiing that violates those. And, uh that's pretty good skiing. What happened to him? I always preferred his skiing to JF's, though you didn't see much. Maybe I preferred it because he used extension turns at times instead of endless retraction turns.
This was always a fun video. Needed more.

What they want is turns to flow freely and continuously from one to another without any apparent traversing across the hill. The tips should always be changing direction. (Shouldn't watch our own tips!! )

 

[Mike King]

White Pass turns are still a Level 3 task that examiners may ask candidates to perform in PSIA-RM.

BTW, @James, do you remember Robin Barnes having us do those at Big Sky? I do.

Mike

 

[geepers]

White Pass turns are still a Level 3 task that examiners may ask candidates to perform in PSIA-RM.

BTW, @James, do you remember Robin Barnes having us do those at Big Sky? I do.

Mike

And at 1:53

 

[geepers]

@James - no mention of physics here...

 

[James]

What they want is turns to flow freely and continuously from one to another without any apparent traversing across the hill. The tips should always be changing direction.

@Tony S will show you that.
His issue is the big turns across the trail. "They just don't do anything for me" he was quoted saying in the Stowe Reporter. When the reporter asked, "why don't you try them faster?" Tony just skied off doing 3 million turns till the reporter crashed.
His beer league is going to have an intervention with straight skis.

White Pass turns are still a Level 3 task that examiners may ask candidates to perform in PSIA-RM.

BTW, @James, do you remember Robin Barnes having us do those at Big Sky? I do.
Mike

Yeah the East just made a mess of it. So, lamely they canned it as a task. Then added things like "Sequential converging hop turns" Which is weird, if people couldn't figure out big toe to little toe weighted edge change, maybe they'll get a circus act?

Yes, Robin with her hat! I believe we took it all the way into " now do stealth white pass turns" in cutup powder. That's where Sebastien Michel got it from.
Have to commit downhill with the whitepass.

Shouldn't watch our own tips!!

If you go fast enough to get concerned, you probably won't look at your tips. Maybe ski crowded trails, gotta stay alert.
We've got a guy who's about to be an examiner, everytime he demos he stares at the tips the whole time.

There's many drills that are intended to teach a movement pattern or an aspect of skiing where there is a significant divergence from normal. Don't see anyone using javelin turns except when they are doing a drill. Would that invalidate javelin drills?

Nice punt! Aren't the Cross dressing Aussies sort of doing a similar move as get over it except the slippers part?
I think I knew one of the guys watching.
Mogul skiers do them a little differently. There used to be a clip of him doing them at high speed/high frquency. Can't find it.

No one took up the Dysterhouse video? Graphene Platter.

The American women need some different color helmets! So bland.

Another good one. Part deux. Not sure why so much pov.

 

[geepers]

Cross dressing Aussies

Hmm... are you implying the Irish presenter has an Aussie accent?

That's not an Aussie accent. This is an Aussie accent.

As for X-D, yeah, I know they made a USA version with Patrick Swayze. But the original was Australian.

 

[James]

Hmm... are you implying the Irish presenter has an Aussie accent?

That's not an Aussie accent.

Wow, the Irish. Why do they have a team? Bolivia has a guy on the world cup. Mexico's olympic skiers could have grand kids. They don't have teams.

Lol, well they were in green.I knew they weren't Kiwis. Maybe the orange pants were a tip off, but I'm watching hockey. Just as the cross dressing Irish were changing shoes, the NY Islanders tried some smancy pass, lost the puck, lost the game.

 

[CalG]

@Tony S will show you that.
His issue is the big turns across the trail. "They just don't do anything for me" he was quoted saying in the Stowe Reporter. When the reporter asked, "why don't you try them faster?" Tony just skied off doing 3 million turns till the reporter crashed.
His beer league is going to have an intervention with straight skis.


Yeah the East just made a mess of it. So, lamely they canned it as a task. Then added things like "Sequential converging hop turns" Which is weird, if people couldn't figure out big toe to little toe weighted edge change, maybe they'll get a circus act?

Yes, Robin with her hat! I believe we took it all the way into " now do stealth white pass turns" in cutup powder. That's where Sebastien Michel got it from.
Have to commit downhill with the whitepass.


If you go fast enough to get concerned, you probably won't look at your tips. Maybe ski crowded trails, gotta stay alert.
We've got a guy who's about to be an examiner, everytime he demos he stares at the tips the whole time.


Nice punt! Aren't the Cross dressing Aussies sort of doing a similar move as get over it except the slippers part?
I think I knew one of the guys watching.
Mogul skiers do them a little differently. There used to be a clip of him doing them at high speed/high frquency. Can't find it.

No one took up the Dysterhouse video? Graphene Platter.

The American women need some different color helmets! So bland.

Another good one. Part deux. Not sure why so much pov.

When I watch such video, I can only think of all those saps who purchase skis that best suit the conditions they WISH to ski rather than the conditions they actually ski.

When is the last time YOU skied like any of the previous post videos? I know I don't. I tend to run in a more "green" . energy conservation mode.

Please post YOUR skiing over the course of a 6 hour day (fast motion please) and then get back to us with the movements and antics that best suit real life conditions.

Just being real here.

 

[geepers]

Wow, the Irish. Why do they have a team? Lol, well they were in green.I knew they weren't Kiwis. Maybe the orange pants were a tip off...

Maybe the word "Ireland" on the back of the ski jacket in the vid thumbnail was a clue...

 

[oldschoolskier]

All a very interesting read.

However I really think it comes down to basics that are sometimes forgotten or never fully learned.

In this case....Balance....and how it achieved and felt. Fore, aft and side to side. More importantly without teaching these basics the rest while descriptive and accurate fall on deaf ears because the basic is not yet fully understood or assumed to be understood by student and teacher alike.

Simple balance reminders and drills play well into complex skills, explanations and training.

Keep this in mind in the whole package of training otherwise a training methodology misleads as much as it helps.