lateral weight shift vs rocking the ski fore-aft

[LiquidFeet]

Recently I've stumbled upon the phrase "lateral weight shift." The phrase describes transitions where the skier remains centered over the ski (fore-aft-wise) as the body moves laterally over the skis, or the skis move laterally under the body, weight shifting from old outside ski to new outside ski, combined with the assumption that skier remains centered through the whole turn. Nice phrase, short and sweet, easy to understand.

For a simple example, think: PSIMAN.

Not all turns benefit from this kind of transition. An alternative is to move forward over the shovel or pull the feet back at turn start, pressuring the tips as the skis enter the turn. The assumption is the weight moves back or the skis move forward at turn completion. Phrases I've heard for this are rocking fore-aft, pressuring the tips at initiation, moving foragonal, moving 10:00 and 2:00 to release and start a turn, and so on. There are definitely different ways to get "weight" over the shovels at turn start, with the assumption that the weight moves back to center (or farther) towards turn completion.

For an exaggeration of the move-the-feet version, think: dolphin turns.

Got more descriptive phrases for these ways of handling the fore-aft pressure distribution on the skis?
When do you use each?

 

[Dakine]

Skis together, up unweighting....looks old school to me.
Old school works....

 

[Cheizz]

'Voreinwärts' in German, as taught in Austrian ski education. 'Vor' = 'front', 'einwärts' = 'into'. So, to move 'voreinwärts' means 'to move your weight into the front' when transitionig, and thus putting pressure on the front of the skis and releasing the rest of the ski, so you can pivot them, in old style skiing.

 

[mdf]

People used to say "foreagonal" for a partly forward, partly lateral ("diagonal") shift. It elicits groans if you say it, but I am not sure if people are reacting to the concept or the word.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@mdf, I've always liked that word. It makes perfect sense. I also never have understood why people groan.

 

[Jerez]

@LiquidFeet I've been playing with this a lot lately.

At the beginning of the season, I had the privilege of skiing with TJ Metz in a tune-up clinic and we worked a LOT on flex to release. I had a blast. Then I skied with a gall named Roxy from Jackson Hole at a women's clinic and she worked us on pulling skis back (and even tails to tush) for navigating obstacles and drops in the woods and then bumps. Tails to tush seems to be one of the methods for getting forward. If you're in the air or in a situation where you cannot physically pull your body forward, you can pull your skis back. Sort of flex to release but in the fore-aft plane.

If you can't already tell, I'm making this up as I go along, so forgive me if I'm not expressing it well or in PSIA speak. But I digress

Fast forward to my new Stockli Laser AX's and the flex to release carved turn resulted in amazing turns on green and easy blues but were WAY too fast on anything else. I sort of stumbled upon combining that "cross under(?)" flex to release with the pulling the skis back in transition lets me do tighter, more carved, but ultimately slower (down the hill slower not necessarily slower along the ski edge) turns. I also find it works exceedingly well in the bumps, and can "feel" by watching how it could work in the squiggle in the video.

So when do I use it? in the bumps and on steeper groomed terrain when I don't want to go like an old bat out of hell. (or for example, on top of rock drop in a narrow chute where I want to do down and around in a smooth, controlled way) When do I not? on shallow angle terrain when I just want to let the skis run and be silky without dire consequence.

I'm watching this as I hope this doesn't turn out to be a movement pattern that will have to be eradicated later. I'm liking the combination move; it's fun.

 

[geepers]

Recently I've stumbled upon the phrase "lateral weight shift." The phrase describes transitions where the skier remains centered over the ski (fore-aft-wise) as the body moves laterally over the skis, or the skis move laterally under the body, weight shifting from old outside ski to new outside ski, combined with the assumption that skier remains centered through the whole turn. Nice phrase, short and sweet, easy to understand.

For a simple example, think: PSIMAN.

Not all turns benefit from this kind of transition. An alternative is to move forward over the shovel or pull the feet back at turn start, pressuring the tips as the skis enter the turn. The assumption is the weight moves back or the skis move forward at turn completion. Phrases I've heard for this are rocking fore-aft, pressuring the tips at initiation, moving foragonal, moving 10:00 and 2:00 to release and start a turn, and so on. There are definitely different ways to get "weight" over the shovels at turn start, with the assumption that the weight moves back to center (or farther) towards turn completion.

For an exaggeration of the move-the-feet version, think: dolphin turns.

Got more descriptive phrases for these ways of handling the fore-aft pressure distribution on the skis?
When do you use each?

Hmmm... I worked a great deal on "stroking the ski through the arc" since I came across the phrase in a @mike_m post re Rookies last year. It seemed to help although I found it got complex in situations where there was a big increase in drag for loaded vs unloaded ski (eg 6cm of fresh pow on a firm base).

And then later in the season in a CSIA workshop the L4 suggested simply standing in the middle of the ski throughout the turn. Well, that works a treat too! And it has become my new mantra - feel the whole of the outside foot (from toe pad to heel), balance in the middle of that ski.

Now perhaps I've just internalised a certain amount of fore/aft movement and no longer have to consciously focus on it. In any event I've found that focusing on "balance in middle" throughout is TWF. Much less complicated.

(It also could be that I still ski like grandpa before morning coffee...but hey, it feels right.)

Added: this applies to carving groomers.

 

[Dakine]

That "stand in the center of the ski" stuff leads to some very high level, efficient skiing.
When you see a skier doing just what they want in gnarly conditions with no excess movement and looking like they are bored...that's efficiency.
Mikela does that...

 

[Noodler]

Skis together, up unweighting....looks old school to me.
Old school works....

Not always. An up move to unweight requires a "platform" to push off against. There are situations in skiing where you don't have that platform. Most skiers who use this release movement combine it with a twisting of the skis once unweighted. This is also problematic in some terrain and conditions that "block" the ability to twist the skis rather than tip them.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Hmmm... I worked a great deal on "stroking the ski through the arc" since I came across the phrase in a @mike_m post re Rookies last year. It seemed to help although I found it got complex in situations where there was a big increase in drag for loaded vs unloaded ski (eg 6cm of fresh pow on a firm base).

And then later in the season in a CSIA workshop the L4 suggested simply standing in the middle of the ski throughout the turn. Well, that works a treat too! And it has become my new mantra - feel the whole of the outside foot (from toe pad to heel), balance in the middle of that ski.

Now perhaps I've just internalised a certain amount of fore/aft movement and no longer have to consciously focus on it. In any event I've found that focusing on "balance in middle" throughout is TWF. Much less complicated.

(It also could be that I still ski like grandpa before morning coffee...but hey, it feels right.)

Added: this applies to carving groomers.

Great stuff. It’s important to keep up with the ski as one stands centered on its sweet spot. Focus on maintaining a consistent, significant ankle dorsiflexion throughout the turn-the most effective way to control the position of one’s COM. You’ll feel pressure coming up the axis of the tibia entering the foot just in front of the heel. Don’t try to pressure the ball of the foot. Spend some time on slalom skis in 6-8” of heavy fresh. If you don’t stand in the sweet spot and stay there you’ll bite it. Spring slush is good for learning this too.

 

[KingGrump]

Spend some time on slalom skis in 6-8” of heavy fresh. If you don’t stand in the sweet spot and stay there you’ll bite it. Spring slush is good for learning this too.

FIS SL + Spring slush = FUN.

 

[Dakine]

Not always. An up move to unweight requires a "platform" to push off against. There are situations in skiing where you don't have that platform. Most skiers who use this release movement combine it with a twisting of the skis once unweighted. This is also problematic in some terrain and conditions that "block" the ability to twist the skis rather than tip them.

True, no one technique works in all conditions.
But one can easily get the impression from some posters that there is something wrong with up unweighting.
Up unweighting is a core skill for any advanced skier and it is a go to move when things get tough.
Up unweighting along with re centering is the usual last ditch move to regain balance after something else has not gone well.

 

[Noodler]

True, no one technique works in all conditions.
But one can easily get the impression from some posters that there is something wrong with up unweighting.
Up unweighting is a core skill for any advanced skier and it is a go to move when things get tough.
Up unweighting along with re centering is the usual last ditch move to regain balance after something else has not gone well.

I wouldn't necessarily use the term "wrong", but rather the term "limiting". Most skiers, when learning to ski, will initially develop the push off and twist turning method. Works fine on groomers to get the job done. Take that movement pattern into moguls or other challenging off-piste conditions and they can't get a turn completed. I don't believe there is a general understanding (or realization) among everyday skiers of what is actually limiting their skiing progress. They don't have this awareness unless provided with specific instruction on retraction based releases.

 

[Mike King]

Limiting (in most situations) = sending the CoM somewhere
Performance (in most situations) = skiing from the feet up, e.g. allowing the feet to move relative to the CoM.

Mike

 

[James]

This limiting technique seems to work ok on skis that would make most people go back to the lodge today.

 

[Noodler]

This limiting technique seems to work ok on skis that would make most people go back to the lodge today.

Nice example (and I love that video), but the key to making that work was speed (especially on those skinny skis back then). You needed the speed to develop the pressure to provide the "platform" to get the upward movement. I remember being in Alta back in the early '90s on my skinny skis. We had over 2' of blower powder and we were in a constant search for slopes steep enough so we could keep moving and make turns. Low angle pow was a major challenge.

Without the speed, you're down in it and if "it" is heavier snow, you're SOL.

 

[Mike King]

Up-unweighting can also be pretty necessary in skiing slab/breakable crust conditions.

 

[Rod9301]

Up-unweighting can also be pretty necessary in skiing slab/breakable crust conditions.

Depends what ski you're on.
In the backcountry i encounter breakable crust often, and on my katanas very very selfie i have to up unweigh.

I flex to release most of the time.

 

[Rod9301]

This limiting technique seems to work ok on skis that would make most people go back to the lodge today.

They had to do this in skinny skis.

With 100 mm+skis up unweighing is totally unnecessary and limiting.

 

[James]

They had to do this in skinny skis.

With 100 mm+skis up unweighing is totally unnecessary and limiting.

One is always unweighting even if just through the virtual bump. Down unweighting is the flipside. There's also porpoising in powder.
You really consider your up unweighting in steep couloirs limiting?