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Lange girl posters - Deb Armstrong

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Erik Timmerman

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Since LV has been brought up more than once here.
This post from IG and FB hit home with me.
Its sad that we live in a world where people think they can spew hatred and its okay.


This post was great. I love it, if you hadn't posted it I would have. I have to say though that with LV, I feel like it's kind of a live by the sword die by the sword situation. I feel like a lot of this is stuff that she doesn't need to do and I sorta feel like it diminishes her as a sportsman. With that said, she knows exactly what she is doing, and I think she'd probably be worth far less financially without flaunting her body as she does. The only skier that I'd say is remotely comparable to her is Bode Miller and I'll bet that he is far less well known in the US than she is.
 

François Pugh

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It's almost as if those young girls are not the target audience of the advertisements.
Regardless, it's not surprising that they find the add confusing at that age. I found advertising a huge four-wheel drive pickup truck that could haul a small house to folks who never leave the pavement, nor haul a heavy trailer, nor need the room confusing at a much older age.

Advertising appeals to basic instincts, and uses the compulsion to fulfill those needs to sell stuff. The pickup is more obvious; it's buying the power to haul anything anywhere. The need for power and control is a basic human survival characteristic. The "sex sells" is a bit more of a bait and switch, at least with the pickup you are getting some power.
 

Uncle-A

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In the video DA talks mostly to young girls that look like 5th or 6th grade. That is a time when they are starting to find themselves and they definitely mature faster than boys that same age. But by the time they hit 8th grade they are completely different. The influence of other sources is greater than the few Lange posters they might see if they are in the backroom workshop of a ski shop. In all the shops I worked the Lange posters were not on display on the sales floor, just in the workshop. In the video it doesn't address what the target audience is that Lange was after. They are not targeting preteen females, they are targeting teenage males and adult males and that is probably the same thing. As far as the comments about LV and other female athletes, just because someone is a great athlete it doesn't mean that every decision they make will be the smartest. That is especially true for those near the end of their career. Since pro athletes make a living with their bodies they probably have a more fit one than the general public and are well known so it is the best combination for advertising and since a athletes career is a short window they have to capitalize on it when they can. Because training to be a top level athlete takes so much time, many don't develop a good education for a career after sports. So they use what is available to them, I am not saying it is a good thing but it may be a nessary option.
 

tch

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I'm not in favor of sending the thought police into ski shop backrooms and tearing down classic posters.
History must be preserved.
This line of argument -- whether AJ is being serious or not -- is a common theme for aggrieved folks who simply don't want anything to change. It's not about the "thought police". It's about common courtesy and respect for some standards of public discourse. Of course we have the right to think and say anything we want in our society...but does that mean we ought to express that right all the time or anywhere we wish?

You have the right to tell your sweet old grandmother you think she's an insufferable bore who cooks lousy meals...but do you really want to do that? Self-restraint is one of the hallmarks of a civilized society.
 

Philpug

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IT took me a couple of days to put these thoughts together.

images

Even "A League of their Own", one of the more empowering women's movies, this was addressed in a humorous manner.

In the video DA talks mostly to young girls that look like 5th or 6th grade. That is a time when they are starting to find themselves and they definitely mature faster than boys that same age. But by the time they hit 8th grade they are completely different.
Ask 5th or 6th grades boys about the posters, and I am sure you would get a lot of "ewwww"'s. I agree, now ask High School girls and the responses overall would be more telling. If doing this, do a proper sampling...included ski academies.

Lastly my thoughts on the exploitation/objectification. The newer posters were indeed skiers/athletes and I am sure that no where in any of their contracts it was written that they had to pose. We had a local women who was one of the "Local Lange Girls", this was a stong women and later an educator and a mother with no regrets of posing. These women chose to do pose and just by having the choice was their way of owning their own body. I agree with @Tricia we are really bad at judging others and projecting our values on someone else.
 

markojp

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Really, they were beating retired WC men?

I have no idea. Having watched Mikaela ski this summer, if she retired tomorrow and put together a beer league crew, I have no doubt she'd put some former WC men to shame.
 

Tricia

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Also a good point -- these girls looked a little prepubescent, too, which might be the main part. Same for your second paragraph: I only wish we could appeal to our higher instincts, not our baser ones.
I wonder what these girls would think if this same topic were posed to them a few years from now. :huh:
 

crgildart

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I keep circling back around to the 4092372097 things I've said or done that I'd definitely wouldn't say or do around a 5 year old child, girl or boy. Does that mean that those things should never be said or done around anyone? Of course not. Read the room. Provocative images of that nature (men or women) don't belong places where children are likely to be exposed to them. They belong on the wall of a 14 year old's bedroom or garage/shop where people are probably also drinking after hours. What's more debatable is what kind of media outlets they're not inappropriate for. Freedom of speech and art is important, but so are community standards..
 

AmyPJ

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So, as #1) a female and #2) the mother of a 13 YO girl who has unique thought processes, the biggest "issue" is that it normalizes objectifying females. Some women are comfortable with that, I am not entirely. It's quite threatening at times, actually. I've been stalked by coworkers in college, and had a very famous professional athlete send his "bodyguard" over to me at a bar and ask if I'd like to meet up with said athlete later. For ME, it's a very, very uncomfortable and threatening feeling that you are being essentially stalked. IMO objectifying women through advertising feeds into this narrative that it's OK, and that women like this. Maybe some do. I am not one of them.

With all that said, I shared the IG post by LG when she first posted it, because the comments alone were hideous. Again, objectifying women, criticizing their looks, their bodies. I applaud her for sharing her "imperfections". She's as badass as they come.
 

Tony S

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I am sure that no where in any of their contracts it was written that they had to pose.
Come on, Phil, you're smarter than that. Exploitation that happens to women as they try to navigate their career paths isn't generally written into their contracts. That's part of what makes it insidious. Did you see Thursday's NYT piece I posted in the wine thread, about extensive sexual harassment and assaults in the sommelier community? There was nothing in the exam rules saying that if you were a woman you had to sleep with the examiner if you wanted to pass.
 

markojp

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There are a couple of these in the back of our workshop. Both are signed by the athlete. I think most of us don't really pay attention to them one way or the other, but the signature keeps them on the wall more than anything else. We have women working in the shop as well. I'll ask what they think, but I doubt they even notice they're there. We're all much more likely to comment and coo over a pair of really cool old skis that someone's dropped in our recycle bin. I think in general, the world has moved on. That said, as a kid, even in upper elementary school, all the boys I knew thought the Lange posters were about the coolest thing ever, but no one's mom let them hang in anyone's room... not even in the garage or workshed for that matter. :roflmao:
 

SBrown

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So, as #1) a female and #2) the mother of a 13 YO girl who has unique thought processes, the biggest "issue" is that it normalizes objectifying females. Some women are comfortable with that, I am not entirely. It's quite threatening at times, actually. I've been stalked by coworkers in college, and had a very famous professional athlete send his "bodyguard" over to me at a bar and ask if I'd like to meet up with said athlete later. For ME, it's a very, very uncomfortable and threatening feeling that you are being essentially stalked. IMO objectifying women through advertising feeds into this narrative that it's OK, and that women like this. Maybe some do. I am not one of them.

With all that said, I shared the IG post by LG when she first posted it, because the comments alone were hideous. Again, objectifying women, criticizing their looks, their bodies. I applaud her for sharing her "imperfections". She's as badass as they come.

I never felt any sort of "stalking" vibe, I just ... how do I say this ... I value other things about myself (and others) a lot more than looks and sex appeal, and it's sad that those attributes fall low on the scale. I know it's nature, whatever. It just sucks. Any moron can take her shirt off for a photo.
 

Rod9301

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Come on, Phil, you're smarter than that. Exploitation that happens to women as they try to navigate their career paths isn't generally written into their contracts. That's part of what makes it insidious. Did you see Thursday's NYT piece I posted in the wine thread, about extensive sexual harassment and assaults in the sommelier community? There was nothing in the exam rules saying that if you were a woman you had to sleep with the examiner if you wanted to pass.
How is a lange poster sexual harassment?


Have you considered that maybe a female athlete enjoys shooting her body, as she works really hard to have a beautiful body?
 

Wasatchman

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Come on, Phil, you're smarter than that. Exploitation that happens to women as they try to navigate their career paths isn't generally written into their contracts. That's part of what makes it insidious. Did you see Thursday's NYT piece I posted in the wine thread, about extensive sexual harassment and assaults in the sommelier community? There was nothing in the exam rules saying that if you were a woman you had to sleep with the examiner if you wanted to pass.
In the age of me too, not one of these former Lange models has spoken out that they have been exploited. And now that their related careers are over, there is presumably no fear of career retribution should they speak out.

Without any evidence, equating the lange ad campaign to sexual harassment and exploitation actually does a disservice to real cases of it.
 

RobSN

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I stopped watching the video after the young lady at 45s through 1:12 in. My reasoning was that that young lady had no feelings one way or the other about the photograph, but you could see the wheels turning in her head that she felt that she ought to have a reaction and was trying to work out what it should be. Reminded me of my daughters being put on the spot when they were young to think x, y or z. We ought to recognize that sometimes young people don't have a viewpoint about something because it is not (maybe yet) a part of their lives - which in my view is great. Now, Deb Armstrong can and should, if this is the way she feels, let her views be known. We can agree with her, disagree with her, or ignore her (me - I'm already bored). I just object, in general, to using young people as foils to supposedly back up your viewpoint.
 

Wasatchman

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it normalizes objectifying females. Some women are comfortable with that, I am not entirely. It's quite threatening
What's interesting to me is let's say your premise is correct, then we got a much bigger issue than lange ads. Nearly every single female pop artist on the planet for quite some time has accentuated her sex appeal and incorporated it in music acts, videos, and public persona. Presumably the pop artists are doing this on their own volition. And they are far more influential on culture than any lange ad will ever be. And interestingly some actually say these pop rock acts represent women empowerment. So I'd say you got a lot more to worry about if your premise is true.

Edit: and to the extent media is putting pressure on girls for body image, etc. I'd hazard a strong guess that modern female pop acts and personalities would be a major contributing factor as much as anything. And in this sense then you'd argue we would have gone completely backwards. I am not sure a divine voice such as Ella Fitzgerald would even be relevant in today's world without the additional image stuff.
 
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Uncle-A

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What was the date of the last Lange poster? I would guess about 30 years ago if not more, and a lot has changed in since than. Also those women that posed for them were not all athletes but probably were fashion models which is another conversation altogether.
 
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