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Killington's TBL Beginner Progression

whumber

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In that Killington training video, everything is kept very simple. This is the first of four two-hour-beginner-lessons that adults buy in a bundled batch. I don't know if they do this progression with kids, or if they use this terrain for kids and do other things with them depending on age.

We have a smaller version of the TBL across the road for kids although it's being completely redone for this coming season. With kids you generally use the kids side mini-pipe over ramshead off the carpets and then quickly move them to the adult side TBL below the mini-pipe.

This video is a few years old now so the TBL looks a bit different than what's in the video. The ski school and snow operating have been iterating on the setup each year to try and improve it bit by bit.

What they do not do in this video:
--I can't find anything where they teach them to stop. Students coast to a stop on friendly terrain built for that purpose. They do teach the first single turn up onto a berm, then down onto the flat, where they coast to a stop.

This is usually taught immediately after the students become comfortable with a straight glide across the minipipe. You see it a bit in the video where they do a straight run in the gliding wedge. In a real lesson you would have the students do multiple runs of this with variations on the size of the wedge. That said, most instructors try to instill early on that the primary way of coming to a stop is by turning up the hill rather than having them rely on a braking wedge.

--I can't find anything addressing release: no mention of flattening a ski, shortening or flexing a leg, lengthening or extending a leg, or intentionally flattening one or both skis before starting a new turn.
--I can't find anything where they have students get tall/small to start/end a turn.

What most of us have found is that you kind of have to pick one thing for them to focus on otherwise they get overloaded and just completely lose focus. The standard "move" we teach is to focus on the turning of the ski although certainly if you have students who don't quite get that you then start to throw in what you've mentioned. This video is just meant to represent the ideal 1st lesson rather than cover all bases. Pretty much nobody uses the boot assisted turn shown in the video. Students don't really get what it's trying to teach and it freaks quite a few of them out.

Also, for anyone interested the guy in the silver/gray jacket with the black Tecnica boots is former PSIA president Ray Allard.
 
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karlo

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Have any instructors tried to teach beginner lesson while wearing rental boots themselves?

Rentals are a real problem. Last year, I had a (13 year old?) who was big for her age. The rental shop, I suppose for expedience, fitted her with both adult boots and adult skis. At lunch time, I took her back to have her re-fitted with junior gear. She ended up with another instructor for the afternoon, but at the end of the day, she shared with me that she had a much more successful and fun afternoon.

It's not so much the gear itself. It's the attention renters get when rental shops are simply trying to keep the assembly line moving at a desired rate.
 

JESinstr

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I didn't know that teaching someone to develop a solid stance against the edges of the skis and learning to feel pressure through the arch using a BOS comprised of the ball of the big toe and front inside of the heel had to be undone down the road nor that a level III doesn't fundamentally balance the same way while in the process of turning.

If you begin with a solid (tension based) wedge stance, The odds of the student experiencing success in controlling their speed and establishing the proper COM to BOS relationship are increased. From there, you build in fluidity and address flexibility by developing new movement patterns that manage the COM to BOS relationship "while on the move" through various vertical exercises such as the one in the Killington video. I know this flies in the face of prevailing dogma but I had good success with this approach last year.

This has nothing to do with unlearning but everything to do with establishing centered balance and then developing a full range of motion using movement patterns for effective skiing.

This is about a ground up approach that focuses on the foundation before we address non balance aspects (like rotary) up the kinetic chain
 

Philpug

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Rentals are a real problem. Last year, I had a (13 year old?) who was big for her age. The rental shop, I suppose for expedience, fitted her with both adult boots and adult skis. At lunch time, I took her back to have her re-fitted with junior gear. She ended up with another instructor for the afternoon, but at the end of the day, she shared with me that she had a much more successful and fun afternoon.

It's not so much the gear itself. It's the attention renters get when rental shops are simply trying to keep the assembly line moving at a desired rate.
This is an industry wide problem. The lowest paid, least qualified employee is put in front of the most important customer, the first timers to the sport.
 

markojp

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This is an industry wide problem. The lowest paid, least qualified employee is put in front of the most important customer, the first timers to the sport.

Sadly, the industry gets what it pays for.
 

Nancy Hummel

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If ski schools want people to enjoy skiing and return, they need to invest in the first time experience. Include rental equipment in beginner lessons and train people to get people in the right size boots. Ski schools need to put their better instructors for first timer lessons. It can be done and it makes a difference.
 
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LiquidFeet

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If ski schools want people to enjoy skiing and return, they need to invest in the first time experience. Include rental equipment in beginner lessons and train people to get people in the right size boots. Ski schools need to put their better instructors for first timer lessons. It can be done and it makes a difference.

I'll add to that. Create custom designed user-friendly beginner terrain and block ski-through traffic from it.
 

mister moose

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Rentals are a real problem ...It's not so much the gear itself. It's the attention renters get when rental shops are simply trying to keep the assembly line moving at a desired rate.
What about the gear itself? Can anyone here estimate the number of skier days on rental boots before they are swapped out for new ones? I'm guessing it's a high number. Learning to ski is hard enough, learning to ski on packed out boots that generate rapid hot spots might be the least enjoyable part of the experience. Thinking you can teach (introductory) high end skills "that will carry through to level III" might apply to a select few, but joe video game average, who has never been on a skateboard or tennis court, is going to have a lot of difficulty mimicking anything more than a straight run with wild gyrations and a wedge that decomposes rapidly into panic. Add painful boots, (And the perception that proper buckling is too tight) and I don't see where wedge turns just roll off easily no matter what the terrain.

In all my ski lessons, there were things the instructor did I could understand easily and could do fairly well fairly soon. Then there are those things that he did that I could not mimic at all, or that I wasn't sure why we were doing it and it didn't help, or that he said he was doing something and I couldn't see anything different. On your first day or two, or three, there should be all of the former and hardly any of the latter.

I grew up on a grand tour of horrible beginner terrain. Bunny hills were stuffed into whatever afterthought crevice could be found, and had all sorts of lift issues, pitch issues, icy spot from the spring issues, too short issues, or zero progression from too flat to too steep. They ended abruptly at fences, brooks, and parking lots, with frequent collisions. So to me, TBL really means "We're finally giving the beginner a fighting chance terrain"

Forget about teaching Michael Jordan or Serena Williams or Tom Brady how to ski. Think about teaching Dr Sheldon Cooper, or Steve Urkel or Homer Simpson. In other words, now that there is TBL, how about ABL? (Ability Based Learning)
 
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LiquidFeet

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....Bunny hills were stuffed into whatever afterthought crevice could be found, and had all sorts of lift issues, pitch issues, icy spot from the spring issues, too short issues, or zero progression from too flat to too steep.....

"Afterthought crevice" is stunningly accurate for many mountains with limited terrain.

I am impressed with Killington's efforts.
It would be great if they updated their training video to reflect changes that @whumber noted above.
 

karlo

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Re rentals
Add painful boots

And, it need not be that way. Rental boots are designed with huge volume, at least those that are not demo’s. Boots I own hurt more, when buckled, than any rental boot I’ve had. Periodic replacement, even if just the liner, and proper fitting is all that’s needed.
 

Nancy Hummel

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What about the gear itself? Can anyone here estimate the number of skier days on rental boots before they are swapped out for new ones? I'm guessing it's a high number. Learning to ski is hard enough, learning to ski on packed out boots that generate rapid hot spots might be the least enjoyable part of the experience. Thinking you can teach (introductory) high end skills "that will carry through to level III" might apply to a select few, but joe video game average, who has never been on a skateboard or tennis court, is going to have a lot of difficulty mimicking anything more than a straight run with wild gyrations and a wedge that decomposes rapidly into panic. Add painful boots, (And the perception that proper buckling is too tight) and I don't see where wedge turns just roll off easily no matter what the terrain.

In all my ski lessons, there were things the instructor did I could understand easily and could do fairly well fairly soon. Then there are those things that he did that I could not mimic at all, or that I wasn't sure why we were doing it and it didn't help, or that he said he was doing something and I couldn't see anything different. On your first day or two, or three, there should be all of the former and hardly any of the latter.

I grew up on a grand tour of horrible beginner terrain. Bunny hills were stuffed into whatever afterthought crevice could be found, and had all sorts of lift issues, pitch issues, icy spot from the spring issues, too short issues, or zero progression from too flat to too steep. They ended abruptly at fences, brooks, and parking lots, with frequent collisions. So to me, TBL really means "We're finally giving the beginner a fighting chance terrain"

Forget about teaching Michael Jordan or Serena Williams or Tom Brady how to ski. Think about teaching Dr Sheldon Cooper, or Steve Urkel or Homer Simpson. In other words, now that there is TBL, how about ABL? (Ability Based Learning)

Karlo, I teach plenty of "joe video average" and "people who don't play any sports" etc. Boots and short skis are part of the beginner lesson. The people who work in the shop are trained to put people in boots that fit. The shop is located near the "Elk Camp Meadows" which is a fenced off area with 2 tubes and a chair lift. If their boots hurt at any time, they can go into the shop, swap them out and be back out in under 10 minutes most times. Aspen Ski Company put quite a bit of thought, effort and money towards this set up. I don't know how often they swap out the boots but most look fairly new to me. Lessons are 5 hours including lunch. Sometimes it takes a couple of days to get people making turns. That is ok. If you take the time at the beginning, at some point, they will take off.

It can be done. Owners and operators the resorts need to put forth the effort for these programs or nothing will change.

I used to teach at Breckenridge which did not have the same set up. It was more challenging to teach beginners but it can be done. We all need to be realistic with regard to our expectations of what can be done in 2 hours, 5 hours and with the terrain and equipment that is available.
 
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LiquidFeet

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Karlo, I teach plenty of "joe video average" and "people who don't play any sports" etc. Boots and short skis are part of the beginner lesson. The people who work in the shop are trained to put people in boots that fit. The shop is located near the "Elk Camp Meadows" which is a fenced off area with 2 tubes and a chair lift. If their boots hurt at any time, they can go into the shop, swap them out and be back out in under 10 minutes most times. Aspen Ski Company put quite a bit of thought, effort and money towards this set up. I don't know how often they swap out the boots but most look fairly new to me. Lessons are 5 hours including lunch. Sometimes it takes a couple of days to get people making turns. That is ok. If you take the time at the beginning, at some point, they will take off......

Your mountain's beginner program sounds excellent, and actually sounds like a bargain $$-wise. Good for Aspen. Here's what the website says:

Experience your first day on skis in a stress-free learning environment with our industry-leading instructions while on specialized beginner equipment and terrain. Learning takes time, so we recommend 3 days for any first-timer to get truly comfortable on snow.

- Lessons run from 10am - 3pm.
- We recommend that guests purchase our 3-day First Time group lesson product.
- Rate Includes: Lesson, specialized beginner equipment, and beginner-area lift ticket.

1-Day
$250 - Advance Purchase
$265 - In-Resort
$285 - In-Resort Peak

3-Day
$625 - Advance Purchase
$670 - In-Resort
$715 - In-Resort Peak
 

Wendy

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What’s not addressed here is the beginner (often female) who is, by the inability of the rental equipment to accommodate alignment issues on her inside edges. Some of the exercises shown in the Killington video, specifically those rotary movements, would cause frustration for someone unable to get on a flat ski.

My own progression was hindered by this problem years ago and nearly caused me to quit the sport. I see so many new skiers in lift lines who are terribly knock-kneed and I often wonder if they ever feel the frustration of not being able to progress.
 

Seldomski

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What about the gear itself? Can anyone here estimate the number of skier days on rental boots before they are swapped out for new ones?

Personally, I skied about 20 seasons in rental boots. I was only averaging about 4 days on snow per year though in that time. Usually just one trip, rarely two in a season. My feet though are suited to rental boots. They are large volume and bony, so I was not swimming in them. I did take ibuprofen at lunch every day and figured that painful boots was just part of the deal with skiing. I have Lange SX boots now, which are pretty wide last and they needed to be punched/grinded in spots. As long as I don't get too hot (feet start to swell) they are more comfortable than some of my street shoes.

I took many lessons early on. I don't remember instructors ever telling me that I needed to get my own boots in my early years on skis. Maybe I was too young/stubborn or didn't listen then? IDK. I eventually gave up on lessons because I was getting nowhere. I thought that I simply didn't ski enough days. I took a few private lessons. That $$ would have been much better spent on proper boots. Rental boots were also definitely part of the problem. Fine edge control is very hard to learn when the ski doesn't move immediately with your foot. I was always learning a new boot and new ski on every trip.

About 4 years ago in a multiple day lesson/camp I noticed that everyone else had their own boots and that boot fitting was actually a topic for the camp. I researched the process to get fitted for boots - it was way more involved than I expected. Basically it's like fitting a prosthetic to your foot so you can then attach a ski to your skeleton.

Long story short -- beginner lessons need to assume that most students are in poorly fitting rental boots. Or if they have their own, that boot is likely not a good fit. Teaching subtle moves to edge/release skis is not going to work in most cases. I think once a skier gets to the advanced beginner stage, they need to start hearing in every lesson that proper fitting boots are important. That you should get boots 'soon' to really continue progressing. And the process for getting that boot and how a proper fitting works needs to also be part of the lesson.

I'd suggest that the ski school have also a boot fitting guide. You pay $$ and the guide takes you to a good fitter in town and shepherds the student through the process of boot fitting. They make sure that the shell check is done, proper flex, footbeds, etc etc. I would guess the price could be around that of a group lesson, since there should be minimal risk of injury to the student and 'teacher' in that scenario.
 

surfsnowgirl

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Ski poles is another one for me. I teach a lot of beginners and I wish the rental shop would stop giving people poles because they aren't using them and it's just an extra prop that can get in the way. I do tend to take their poles away. Having poles can be helpful in navigating on/off the carpet and navigating through the carpet line but aside from that....... I think they get a lot more out of the lesson when they learn how to shuffle their feet when "walking" and see the result of that feeding into some gentle skating.

I had a private lesson 3 years ago in Quebec and I was EXTREMELY DEPENDENT on my poles. The instructor took them away from me and it turned out to be one of the life changing ski lessons of my life. To this day I ski without poles a few times a month.

I think no poles and TBL and the student will be off to a great start.
 

karlo

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Karlo, I teach plenty of "joe video average" and "people who don't play any sports" etc. Boots and short skis are part of the beginner lesson. The people who work in the shop are trained to put people in boots that fit. The shop is located near the "Elk Camp Meadows" which is a fenced off area with 2 tubes and a chair lift. If their boots hurt at any time, they can go into the shop, swap them out and be back out in under 10 minutes most times. Aspen Ski Company put quite a bit of thought, effort and money towards this set up. I don't know how often they swap out the boots but most look fairly new to me. Lessons are 5 hours including lunch. Sometimes it takes a couple of days to get people making turns. That is ok. If you take the time at the beginning, at some point, they will take off.

My second day ever on skis was at Aspen. The rentals even then were great. I was skiing with my skiing friends by the end of the week.
 

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