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Killington's TBL Beginner Progression

karlo

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That’s the company leasing and operating the new indoor ski center at American Dream. So, if ever one wants to see how TBL works, as-designed, no better place next time in the NY area, year round. Hey, off season, those Aspen instructors can also get together with they’re big-spending NY-area clients to work on fundamentals or just have a party :). I’m planning on checking out the center and TBL after it opens on Dec. 4
 

markojp

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Give me a mini half pipe anytime! Love'em!

Crystal Mountain is going all in on TBL. Eric L has been out and will be out again to get things dialed. I spent a season at Stevens using their variation of TBL. It's where in about 3 minutes with an adult first timer's multiweek group, I fell completely in love with the half pipe. Man o man, you can get soooo much done and dialed, particularly with adult learners with fear issues and non-athletic backgrounds. It also was great for assigning different students different task variation to manage class splits.
 
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Chris V.

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I was with them 100% until they started discussing first turns. The only thing I would have added to that point would have been a caution against using foot rotation in the subtalar joints to create the wedge.

When they began demonstrating teaching first turns, I felt it all went a little sideways.

o The discussion repeatedly emphasizes "simultaneous steering of both skis" while maintaining a wedge. However, I don't think that telling first timers to "steer" will have any meaning to them. Furthermore, the discussion neither tells us how to convey this idea of "steering" in terms students will understand, nor tells us what the creators of the video segment mean by it. "Steering" is a widely abused and often ill-defined term. Not everyone uses it the same way.

o If "steering" in this context is to include at least a component of deliberately creating rotation of the skis independent of the upper body, then I have to say this can't work to INITIATE a wedge turn from a standing or extremely slow start, such as is being demonstrated here--absent a flapping of wings to create the necessary leverage. If the skier is already moving a bit, then rotation of the upper and lower body, opposite each other, can initiate turning forces--but we don't see either of these skiers doing that!

o I consider introducing a bit of upper-lower body separation as the turn develops--and this is possible even in wedge turns--to be a very good idea at a very early stage of teaching. But again, we see absolutely zero upper-lower body separation from Ray (the one in grey) or the other skier (in orange).

o This brings up a peeve of mine. I don't understand why so many instructors--not just in this video--think they should be stiff mannequins when demonstrating wedge turns to beginners.

o What they may mean by "steering" is maintaining the relationship of the two feet and the two skis to one another, which is certainly crucial.

o It's very easy to start a turn from a wedge, because the new outside ski is pre-edged and pre-pivoted into the direction of the turn. I think there must be about 50 ways of starting a turn from a straight run in a wedge.

o The video makes ONE mention of flattening the new inside ski--in the demonstration of the boot-assisted turn. Then in looking closely at all the subsequent demonstrations of wedge turns, I'm not able to see a single instance of inside ski flattening or of any kind of release move.

o So how ARE these skiers initiating wedge turns? I see a lot of micro-stemming (particularly by Ray), maybe some increase of new outside ski edge angle, and probably a lot of deliberate weight shift to the new outside ski.

What I would do instead--teach release of the new inside ski through a slight flexion and flattening. It takes very little to START a wedge turn, which will then build on itself if the student just lets it happen. Then encourage some modest upper-lower body separation during the shaping of the turn.
 

JESinstr

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It is hard to teach people to turn the skis with the feet/legs while not turning the body too. This is an unfamiliar movement. Plus, beginners wonder how on earth they can "turn" those long boards attached to their feet. They have no trust that they can do it without catching an edge and falling. Turning the upper body first feels intuitive to beginners, and unfortunately it works to turn the skis, so there's that fact hovering over the lesson, ready to defeat an instructor's best efforts.

:thumb::thumb::thumb: :golfclap::golfclap:

And why is that? because when we are not on skis, we rotate our feet/legs using different BOSs than we do on skis. Off skis, we either pivot over the ball of the foot and toes or our heels. This is the balance skill implementation that a beginner brings to the SS meeting place and changing this should be Job 1 in the lesson progression. Instead, many instructors hope the student picks it up along the way either by accident or magic. I cringe at the thought of telling newbies to "squash a bug" in order to achieve ski redirection.

As I have been advocating, we are not teaching to the fundamental bottom rung of the ladder. Proper rotary skills are based on a proper BOS and learning to balance using that base. So while there maybe a lot to like about TBL, it is just another doomed to failure gimmick so long as we keep trying to teach leg/foot rotation without first instilling the proper BOS.
 
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LiquidFeet

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@Chris V. this is getting to be an interesting conversation. Here are some of your comments below.

"Steering" is a widely abused and often ill-defined term. Not everyone uses it the same way.
I think there must be about 50 ways of starting a turn from a straight run in a wedge.
What I would do instead--teach release of the new inside ski through a slight flexion and flattening. It takes very little to START a wedge turn, which will then build on itself if the student just lets it happen.


Yes, "steering" is a multi-meaning term inappropriate for a beginner lesson.

I've tried having beginner adults start their first wedge turns by releasing the new inside ski. I've had them flatten it, and/or shorten its leg. I've had them allow their hips to move ever-so-slightly towards it, keeping the torso upright, as they do these things. I've had them try to lighten it and/or lift its tail ever-so-slightly. Yes, releasing that ski and waiting for the outside ski to do its thing works, but the resulting turn feels too out of their control for my beginners to have confidence in it. On our beginner terrain, such a wedge turn takes too long to develop and takes up too much room on the slope. Beginners in their first ever lesson need shorter turns whose shape they feel they can control.

So I have devolved into using the "turn the feet" approach. Call me pragmatic. "Point the arrow," "point your wedge," "turn your feet," and "turn your skis, both of them together" --- "to point in the direction you want to go" --- combined with "like this" works like magic. They learn easily to complete their turns, so no one takes off gaining speed down the hill. By the end of their 1.5 hour group lesson, beginners who turn their feet/wedge/skis/arrow can make short or medium or long radius turns on demand to control their path and their speed down the hill. They can turn to stop. The narrow wedge helps them go slowly enough to gain confidence and to feel that they can get back to work on Monday without a broken leg. Manually turning their feet/skis is the most practical approach to initiation given the lesson time and the terrain we have to work with.

I also know this approach sets them up for terminal intermediatehood should they decide they know enough to set out skiing the whole mountain without further instruction. Beginners in our morning lesson get a free follow-up lesson in the afternoon at our mountain. If they come back for that (some do, not all), then is the time to teach them to start their turns by working that new inside ski/foot/leg. This helps them move towards skiing parallel. The afternoon lesson is also the time to work on separation.

If our mountain sold sets of four 2-hour lessons as does Killington, there would be time to cover some of those 50 ways to start a turn. That's a great clinic topic for instructors. How many ways can a group of instructors come up with to start a wedge turn, and what happens when a novice student uses each of those initiations on a blue groomer. Let's try each here on this beginner terrain, then let's go up the mountain and try them there. That would be an eye-opener clinic.
 
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markojp

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While we know what upper and lower body separation is and feels like, to a first time skier it's an absolutely alien concept no matter how much they like James Brown's dancing. Day one and two, it all starts and ends in the feet (flattening/tipping, and steering) as well establishing the sensations of consistent, functional fore/aft balance while maintaining cuff contact. People do understand steering, but have limited success because of initial difficulties finding and maintaining the fore/aft sweet spot. Sliding around on slippery stuff activities are like that for a bit. That's why the half pipe is magic.... manageable variation in pitch, etc..., building the experiential catalogue relatively fear free with mileage 'at play'.

When we start linking turns with just a bit more speed, not a lot, just a bit, then I'll talk about separation, but without using the word, only bringing attention to building the sensation of feet moving in a different direction that our body is being pulled down the hill. There are many ways to successfully introduce this idea, and mileage varies with each individual guest and instructor.
.
 
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Chris V.

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When we start linking turns with just a bit more speed, not a lot, just a bit, then I'll talk about separation, but without using the word, only bringing attention to building the sensation of feet moving in a different direction that our body is being pulled down the hill. There are many ways to successfully introduce this idea, and mileage varies with each individual guest and instructor.

Agreed, that bit of speed is the key. Just enough to maintain momentum and keep linking turns, without a lot of balance bobbles.

With respect to LiquidFeet, I've found giving considerable attention to upper-lower body separation (by whatever name) in Level 2 lessons to be very productive.
 
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Chris V.

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...When we are not on skis, we rotate our feet/legs using different BOSs than we do on skis. Off skis, we either pivot over the ball of the foot and toes or our heels. This is the balance skill implementation that a beginner brings to the SS meeting place and changing this should be Job 1 in the lesson progression....

...So while there maybe a lot to like about TBL, it is just another doomed to failure gimmick so long as we keep trying to teach leg/foot rotation without first instilling the proper BOS.

Specifically, what exercises would you change in or add to the Killington progression to instill this?
 

Chris V.

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I also know this approach sets them up for terminal intermediatehood should they decide they know enough to set out skiing the whole mountain without further instruction.

Somehow I believe you're better than that.

So I have devolved into using the "turn the feet" approach. Call me pragmatic. "Point the arrow," "point your wedge," "turn your feet," and "turn your skis" --- "to point in the direction you want to go" --- combined with "like this" works like magic.

They learn easily to complete their turns, so no one takes off gaining speed down the hill. By the end of their 1.5 hour group lesson, beginners who turn their feet/wedge/skis/arrow can make short or medium or long radius turns on demand to control their path and their speed down the hill. They can turn to stop. The narrow wedge helps them go slowly enough to gain confidence and to feel that they can get back to work on Monday without a broken leg. Manually turning their feet/skis is the most practical approach to initiation given the lesson time and the terrain we have to work with.

o The literal meaning of what we tell people, and what they do as a result, aren't always the same. What results do you see from your instruction in these terms--movements of what specific body parts, using what muscles and joints?

o Are you seeing movements in the subtalar joints from these instructions? Effective or counterproductive?

o Are you seeing any upper-lower body separation, however small, develop?

o Specifically, what is creating the initial turning force?


The afternoon lesson is also the time to work on separation.

That's very early, I like it!

If our mountain sold sets of four 2-hour lessons as does Killington, there would be time to cover some of those 50 ways to start a turn. That's a great clinic topic for instructors.

It's fun and eye-opening for advanced beginners and intermediates, too.

Thank you for your patience!
 

Nancy Hummel

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There is a large percentage of first time skiers that will not go until they are sure they can stop. It is amazing the number of people whose primary goal is to not run into someone else. Once people know they can stop, they are much more willing to go. I teach a centered stance, leg rotation wedge stop and refer to it as the "emergency brake". This is not the road to terminal intermediateness and it gives them confidence and allows them to be open to going.
 

Steve

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So to a certain degree, can we challenge the conventional wisdom that "you should never teach someone something they have to unlearn later?"

Because I certainly have to teach people to control themselves on very gentle slopes with very strong movements, which sometimes contain hard edging, upper body rotation, "push down on the left ski to go right" (god help us if we were to ever admit that to a student!) and other things that work, but are "wrong."

Things to, as Nancy said, give the student some feeling of control.

From there they can learn the right way later! Is this heresy?
 
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LiquidFeet

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Yes, teaching things the student will have to replace/unlearn later is definitely heresy! I don't know anyone who thinks it's OK to teach people things that need to be undone later. The undoing is so difficult.

So instead of arguing about whether it's OK to teach this or that at the lower levels, the arguments end up being about whether or not what we do teach actually has to be undone later. It's nice to think what we teach on day one is a version of what we want our Level IIIs to do in their skiing exam, right? Mental pretzels are required to maintain that making wedge turns the easiest way is an expert movement pattern.

As a trainer that I totally respect once told me, teaching on the hill is not the same thing as taking a certification exam. You do whatcha gotta do. I say this in all sincerity. I have lost my innocence.
 
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