Kids lessons - the next step - or taking it to the next level

[murphysf]

Hello
My kids are 6 & 8 and have been skiing in the Lake Tahoe region for 2-3 seasons. They have had the group lessons and a couple of 2 hour private lessons. Last season they didn't have any lessons and skied with me.

I just got the essentials of skiing Harald Harb book and DVD and watched the bit on PMTS and tipping.

It got me thinking the lessons that my kids have had in the past was more about the wedge, getting them down the hill and a bit of babysitting as in the beginner group lessons there is alot of waiting around.

How can my kids break away from the wedge and learn to ski properly. Is private lessons the only answer? Unfortunately the ski team is not really an option for us. But an aggressive ski camp might be.

Ideas?

 

[luliski]

How many lessons did they have? Now that they're a little older, it might be good for them to go back to lessons. I had my daughter taking at least half-day lessons every time we skied for 4 or 5 years. Expensive but worth it.

 

[AlpsSkidad]

Lessons are expensive but totally worth it. My girls (6 & 8) have always taken lessons for the past 3 seasons- a mixture of private half days and higher level groups. Mostly private lessons, with perhaps 20 days off group lessons mixed in. They probably have around 110 days of lessons each. The babysitting aspect was always a problem, especially earlier on, but eventually we found better instructors that met our expectations. Even the higher level groups are effective since the kids challenge each other and the instructor doesn't let the group sit around as much doing nothing since all the kids can ski better.

 

[LKLA]

Hello
My kids are 6 & 8 and have been skiing in the Lake Tahoe region for 2-3 seasons. They have had the group lessons and a couple of 2 hour private lessons. Last season they didn't have any lessons and skied with me.

I just got the essentials of skiing Harald Harb book and DVD and watched the bit on PMTS and tipping.

It got me thinking the lessons that my kids have had in the past was more about the wedge, getting them down the hill and a bit of babysitting as in the beginner group lessons there is alot of waiting around.

How can my kids break away from the wedge and learn to ski properly. Is private lessons the only answer? Unfortunately the ski team is not really an option for us. But an aggressive ski camp might be.

Ideas?

If one of the parents / older siblings...can teach them then that can be an option.

If the kids spend a lot of time on the snow then they will eventually get it. However, if you are like most people - neither qualified to teach or take you kids skiing 100 days a year, then lessons is the best option.

Private lessons cost more but your child will get a lot more out of of them as well. A lot of time kids group ski lessons are more fun and "day care" then anything else - and that is fine. Since we are talking about kids, the lesson does not have to be very long as they will likely tire and/or loose their focus. 30 to 60 minutes tops is all you need. One thing to consider is to do the lessons at smaller/cheaper mountains. Take advantage of the fact that you don't need vast,challenging terrain (instead of hypothetically spending $150 on an hour lesson at large resort you can spend $60 at a small, local "hill". Given what you are looking for you will benefit more from an instructor who has experience teaching kids and communicating with the technique to them and knowing what drills work than a ex pro skier level 3 instructor.

 

[Josh Matta]

Well if the wedge was taught any where remotely correctly it would have gone away.... .

What tends to happen is a instructor and parents just keeping saying pizza, pizza, pizza and never explains to the kids(or hell most adults) what is actually happening and that our end goal is not speed control wedging, then kids and even some adults get stuck in that damned wedge.

What you are able to do yourself is this.....

Get off steep terrain, go find the longest most mellow terrain you can find, ideally with lots of reasons to turn. Reason to turn could be things to turn around, dips,rolls ,banks, jump lift tower to go around. Emphasis making a smaller wedge at first, as jumping straight to one footed skiing or anything remotely PMTS will not work if their wedge is too wide. The thing is most people dont realize that most kids unless they are very dedicated and slightly older hate doing fall line turns over and over again. Put yourself in their shoes, think about what they fun about skiing, and use to teach them how to ski.

Once in a narrow wedge start introducing idea of active balance transfer to the outside ski, make sure they know not to "push"on their skis. Sadly many PSIA instructors and not knowledgeable parents and friends tell people to push on their skis to turn. Keep terrain easy, if you have a power wedge you will never get them to ski parallel on hard terrain.

Working drills like thousands steps, one footed inside ski lifts, thousands hops, and spinning around on the ground are easy to repurpose into games and challenges.

I concur with @LKLA if you are able to find a good instructor at a smaller hill it can be a ton cheaper than a destination resort. With that said I would say all resort have good instructors, and all resort have bad instructors. Even some of the good instructors with kids might not mesh with your kids. The Cert levels mean something, but try to ask around and see how people experiences have gone with people you are booking.

If you ever in Stowe id love to have a crack at breaking the wedge.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

I tried triangulating and I'm not sure I got it right - if they only skied with you last season, then they would have been around 4 & 6 during their last lessons, and they only had one or two seasons of lessons? If that's about right, I really wouldn't worry much about amping up the intensity or anything; just throw 'em back in group lessons. The ski schools have their whole level system & it just takes time to move up through all of them. I would guess that they just didn't quite get to parallel turns, especially if the younger one was only 4 at the time.

Also, just IMO, but I coach kids around this age in another sport and I generally lean away from private lessons until they're a bit older, especially for the 6 year old. They always surprise me with how much they get out of just trying to keep up with each other & copying the most advanced kids in the class. I feel like often the biggest struggle with new skills is just getting them over the mental hump, and they kind of have zero reason to believe something's possible if a random adult is telling them - but they'll happily try it once they watch a kid their age do the same thing.

 

[MikeS]

I'm not sure how much time you have committed to the mountain, but another great option is a seasonal program. I taught for years in a seasonal program, and the development is phenomenal. It's a lot more time on snow, and a good program will try to keep groups and instructors together as much as possible. That allows for some serious ongoing skill development. I spent 4 years with my group, skiing 30+ days with them every season. (Not every program is that intensive, don't be scared by that number) I knew my crew's skiing inside and out, and I knew exactly what they needed to get better. We were doing advanced skiing, not wedge survival skills. Trees, park, racing, bumps, you name it, we did it. My group started with me as 8 year olds. By the time I left them as 12 year olds, their skill set was way better than it had been.

 

[murphysf]

thanks for all the replies.. I thought about the season program and also the kids ski team but we live about 4 hours from lake tahoe and won't be going up 3 weekends a month.

Yes its been a season with no lessons and they are now 6 & 8, will be 7 in April and 9 in Feb. So its time to get back to lessons.

I just looked into it and the group lesson are 1 hour 45 minutes (roughly 10am-12) and are $76. There is an option to add on the afternoon lesson that is from 2pm-4pm for $49.

I think my kids could handle both lessons, or do you think it would be too much?

If I end up going with the morning and the afternoon should I request that they have the same teacher for the am and pm session?

Thanks!!

 

[LKLA]

thanks for all the replies.. I thought about the season program and also the kids ski team but we live about 4 hours from lake tahoe and won't be going up 3 weekends a month.

Yes its been a season with no lessons and they are now 6 & 8, will be 7 in April and 9 in Feb. So its time to get back to lessons.

I just looked into it and the group lesson are 1 hour 45 minutes (roughly 10am-12) and are $76. There is an option to add on the afternoon lesson that is from 2pm-4pm for $49.

I think my kids could handle both lessons, or do you think it would be too much?

If I end up going with the morning and the afternoon should I request that they have the same teacher for the am and pm session?

Thanks!!

Group lessons are good. Private lessons are better. Getting time on the snow is the most important of all.

Good luck!

 

[rustypouch]

thanks for all the replies.. I thought about the season program and also the kids ski team but we live about 4 hours from lake tahoe and won't be going up 3 weekends a month.

Yes its been a season with no lessons and they are now 6 & 8, will be 7 in April and 9 in Feb. So its time to get back to lessons.

I just looked into it and the group lesson are 1 hour 45 minutes (roughly 10am-12) and are $76. There is an option to add on the afternoon lesson that is from 2pm-4pm for $49.

I think my kids could handle both lessons, or do you think it would be too much?

If I end up going with the morning and the afternoon should I request that they have the same teacher for the am and pm session?

Thanks!!

For sure take the lesson in the morning. In the afternoon, that really depends on the kids. Some can't handle that long of a day, others can do it with no problem. Maybe ski a few days without lessons to figure out when they tap out. Worst case if the kids can't handle both sessions, the instructor should have your number, and will call you if they need to be picked up early.

I would recommend the same instructor. It should mean a bit more time on snow and learning, without the need for introductions, and the instructor will already know the abilities of the kids and should have a rapport with them.

 

[murphysf]

Group lessons are good. Private lessons are better. Getting time on the snow is the most important of all.

Good luck!

Private lessons are $132 per hour per child. Or they have a semi private family and friends) where they would allow 2-5 people of similar ability (in my case it would just be 2, my son and daughter) for $175/hour.

So if I do the group lesson for both of my kids with would be $152 total for the 2 hour group morning lesson or $250 total for the am and pm group lesson!!! Ahh the economics of ski lessons.

 

[luliski]

It depends on your kids, but I think group lessons are often more fun for the kids.

 

[James]

Kids are fine all day, I do it all the time with other people's kids and they have to eat lunch with me.
Don't they have an all day option instead of two parts?

 

[murphysf]

Kids are fine all day, I do it all the time with other people's kids and they have to eat lunch with me.
Don't they have an all day option instead of two parts?

Yes they have a $164 (each) full day that includes lunch during the two hour lunch break and also the lift ticket and equipment rental. We already have season passes as well as our own skis and boots. So I can hang out with them for 2 hours and have lunch with them and save $80 ($40 each).

 

[Kurt]

Well if the wedge was taught any where remotely correctly it would have gone away.... .

What tends to happen is a instructor and parents just keeping saying pizza, pizza, pizza and never explains to the kids(or hell most adults) what is actually happening and that our end goal is not speed control wedging, then kids and even some adults get stuck in that damned wedge.

What you are able to do yourself is this.....

Get off steep terrain, go find the longest most mellow terrain you can find, ideally with lots of reasons to turn. Reason to turn could be things to turn around, dips,rolls ,banks, jump lift tower to go around. Emphasis making a smaller wedge at first, as jumping straight to one footed skiing or anything remotely PMTS will not work if their wedge is too wide. The thing is most people dont realize that most kids unless they are very dedicated and slightly older hate doing fall line turns over and over again. Put yourself in their shoes, think about what they fun about skiing, and use to teach them how to ski.

Once in a narrow wedge start introducing idea of active balance transfer to the outside ski, make sure they know not to "push"on their skis. Sadly many PSIA instructors and not knowledgeable parents and friends tell people to push on their skis to turn. Keep terrain easy, if you have a power wedge you will never get them to ski parallel on hard terrain.

Working drills like thousands steps, one footed inside ski lifts, thousands hops, and spinning around on the ground are easy to repurpose into games and challenges.

I concur with @LKLA if you are able to find a good instructor at a smaller hill it can be a ton cheaper than a destination resort. With that said I would say all resort have good instructors, and all resort have bad instructors. Even some of the good instructors with kids might not mesh with your kids. The Cert levels mean something, but try to ask around and see how people experiences have gone with people you are booking.

If you ever in Stowe id love to have a crack at breaking the wedge.

Great points by @Josh Matta . If your kids are stuck in a power wedge get them with an instructor that promotes a narrow wedge (small piece of pizza), balance on outside ski, easy terrain, rapid advancement to plow parallel, and fun terrain like little dips and trails that help them with fore/aft balance with skis in parallel position. A power wedge will block their progression and learning. Talk with instructors and explain what your kids are doing and ask what they would do to work with them. Small groups allow for more personal instruction, but the comfort of your kids is very important; if they are in a group do they feel intimidated by others in the group, do they only respond when they are one-on-one with an instructor, do they enjoy skiing together? Their physiological comfort will affect how they respond to lessons. To reiterate, talk with instructors and see if their approach to teaching your kids makes sense.

 

[Philpug]

Paging @DoryBreaux (local Tahoe coach) to the Pugski Courtesy Phone.

 

[DoryBreaux]

A lot of the kids I coach live at least 3 hours away from Tahoe. There are only two full-time local kids in the program.
Read below to hear my thoughts...
Disclaimer: very strong jaded opinion follows; if you are an instructor who refers to your students as clients, you should probably not read the rest of this post.

Spoiler: Long offensive (to privates instructors) rant

I don't think private lessons for kids are a good idea unless there is a special circumstance (behavioral, developmental etc.). A lot of my instructor (instructor, not coach) friends would jump down my throat for saying this but I strongly feel it's a waste of money. I could probably go on for pages as to why, but it comes down to the child being too fixated on the instructor and not enough on the skiing, and too much emphasis on the customer service to the parents (usually to encourage a bigger tip) and retaining clients (that's how most private instructors look at their students). For those reasons, privates usually don't encourage students (especially kids) to be independent skiers.
If you are set on not being on a team (and you should explore this option, as there are a few programs in the Tahoe region that might have something that would work for you), look into something like Northstars (Heavenly and Kirkwood as well) U4 program. Group size caps at 4 kids, and because of this there is much less babysitting and a lot more skiing. It also gives the kids the social part of skiing that I think is insanely important at their ages. I know other resorts have similar programs, I'm just much more familiar with the NS/Heav/KW products. Another alternative is getting a few of their friends who ski at a similar level and are of a similar maturity level in a private together. This way they have the social component, the group size is small, and it keeps the cost down.

If you want more info on teams, PM me.

 

[Mike King]

A lot of the kids I coach live at least 3 hours away from Tahoe. There are only two full-time local kids in the program.
Read below to hear my thoughts...
Disclaimer: very strong jaded opinion follows; if you are an instructor who refers to your students as clients, you should probably not read the rest of this post.

Spoiler: Long offensive (to privates instructors) rant

I don't think private lessons for kids are a good idea unless there is a special circumstance (behavioral, developmental etc.). A lot of my instructor (instructor, not coach) friends would jump down my throat for saying this but I strongly feel it's a waste of money. I could probably go on for pages as to why, but it comes down to the child being too fixated on the instructor and not enough on the skiing, and too much emphasis on the customer service to the parents (usually to encourage a bigger tip) and retaining clients (that's how most private instructors look at their students). For those reasons, privates usually don't encourage students (especially kids) to be independent skiers.
If you are set on not being on a team (and you should explore this option, as there are a few programs in the Tahoe region that might have something that would work for you), look into something like Northstars (Heavenly and Kirkwood as well) U4 program. Group size caps at 4 kids, and because of this there is much less babysitting and a lot more skiing. It also gives the kids the social part of skiing that I think is insanely important at their ages. I know other resorts have similar programs, I'm just much more familiar with the NS/Heav/KW products. Another alternative is getting a few of their friends who ski at a similar level and are of a similar maturity level in a private together. This way they have the social component, the group size is small, and it keeps the cost down.

If you want more info on teams, PM me.

That's painting with an awfully broad brush. While it is true that there are SOME instructors that you've portrayed correctly, it certainly does not characterize all, let alone most instructors.

That being said, I agree with you about group instruction, whether it be group lessons or a private lesson with a group as you noted: similar in development (that means similar ages) and skill levels and would discourage the parents of most children of the ages here from private lessons -- they will most likely learn more from an appropriately sized group lesson where there is a lot of social interaction with other kids. By appropriately sized, I mean a class of preferably less than say 6.

Mike

 

[Prosper]

My boys are 8 and 9 now. A couple of seasons ago I put them in multi-week programs at Copper (4 week ski lesson for the younger and an 8 week freestyle Park Rat program for the older). The progressed a fair amount. Since then we just ski together. They love skiing trees so we spend a lot of time in green and blue tree runs. With more time on the snow their skills kept progressing. IMHO putting them in a weekly lesson program for a season at their ages this season would be really helpful for developing a good base for their skills. After that just ski with them for the next few seasons. It’s a ton of fun to watch them get better right before your own eyes week by week.

 

[martyg]

To answer your question re wedge...

1. Terrain selection. I see parents take kids on blue runs, where the kids are in a death wedge. You are not doing them any favors.

2. Modeling efficient technique. If they see you rotating your upper body to turn, blocking at the end of turns to control speed, pushing on your skis... Guess what they will be doing??? If you haven't had coaching and video analysis, you are likely not modeling the most efficient technique.

3. Forget about your skiing. When you are with the kids it is about their development, not your enjoyment.

Camps can be a crap shoot. There are a few good ones in Aspen and the I70 corridor. Look up Robin Barnes at Heavenly. She would know. Google her name. Her PSIA D-Team profile will come up.