Keto, Low Carb, Atkins, IF Thread

oldschoolskier

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My sons been on Keto now going into the 5th year. In his case its not about weight lose, but seizure control so it is very constrained on carbs 26grams per day max.

Just to be clear KETO is dangerous. It can kill you directly and indirectly (we personally know of one indirect death). What makes keto dangerous, Ketogen, the waste product of burning fat, so please be careful under doctors supervision.

Keto is expensive. Having food in variety, that tastes good and gives the value of calories you need costs money, think 2 to 5 times the cost of regular heath food.

Learning to carb count in cooking/baking and still have stuff taste good is difficult.

Easy way to determine carb count is Total carbs per serving less fibers is Net Carbs. BTW sugar alcohols (sweeteners) are counted as carbs in the total equation.

Reason it has fallen back out of favor is the risks. This really should be a doctor supervised diet. On your own it easy to get into a health issue in more ways than one.

The second though very low down on the list is cost, people are willing to pay big $$ to have the quick miracle solution to weight loss, so cost really falls to a very distance second.
 

no edge

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Especially true if the diet is going to be used for years.
 

johnnyvw

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My wife has been on an extremely low carb diet for about 8 months because she is type 2 diabetic. She has been wearing a Dexcom monitor (constant monitoring that transmits to a smart phone or watch) for most of that time, and has learned quite a bit about how her diet affects her blood sugar levels. It rarely gets above 100 these days, and she has also seen it drop too low at times, so she knows to watch for that. She is now at the lowest weight she has been in over 30 years, including the time period when she was a cycling coach for Team In Training (multiple centuries every year, and the weekly training that went with it). Most importantly, she was able to discontinue taking the medications her doctor had her on. She not quite at ketosis, and is careful not to go that far.
 

SpauldingSmails

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How is boxing training a different metabolic delivery system than what you were doing before?

If you had performance metabolic testing conducted you'd likely find that 15 - 18 hours of low intensity training / week would help you get there.
The difference is I'm doing only boxing now and zero strength training. That's a lot more aerobic conditioning for longer now as well as more anaerobic training through more intense intervals. My heart rate is higher for longer, moving faster sometimes to fatigue and failure. I was barely conditioning before and that was doing unscheduled prowler pushes or a very short amount of time doing a variation of tempo intervals. But of course I am now much weaker. The strength training gave me some aerobic conditioning but I'll disagree if Mark Rippetoe says all you need to do is squat three sets of fahv and you can successfully box three rounds against a boxer. Specificity!

I was not doing 15-18 hours a week of any training, nor will I ever get that chance. But it would be nice. My training time is the same as before, an hour at a time three to five times a week.
 

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USOPC's head nutritionist puts it squarely in the fade category. My wife, who is a full time trainer, has clients that go on it. They loose weight rapidly, and gain it back on 12 - 18 months later. A scenario that many here seem to echo. That should tell you something about its effectiveness.

For a few individuals it will work. But those are genetic anomalies that are few and far between.
I don't want to sound disrespectful, but there are some common statements that are heard among nutritionists that bug me. First the term "fad" - anything that isn't historically American falls into that category. The Mediterranean diet is a fad only because it is new, though it has been in existence for a while in limited parts of the Mediterranean. Keto has been around far longer and it has been used for energy management more than weight control. IF is fad (but very effective). Paleo is the most common diet labeled fad. It just isn't the case.

It is very common for people to gain weight after a significant loss. Some diets can work but require very strict adherence. Some people are not cut out for that regiment. I have found Paleo to be a challenge during maintenance but combined with Keto I do pretty well. I fluctuate up to ten lbs over a year. I hear that's not good, but at least I keep it within a range.

Many of the very serious gyms around the world connect diet to training. Paleo is typically the choice. But IF has been used in that community for years as has Keto. Professional nutritionists have been very slow to change their position, but low carb and high fat is being heard even with cardiologists. IF has become popular with doctors and the like.
 

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My wife has been on an extremely low carb diet for about 8 months because she is type 2 diabetic. She has been wearing a Dexcom monitor (constant monitoring that transmits to a smart phone or watch) for most of that time, and has learned quite a bit about how her diet affects her blood sugar levels. It rarely gets above 100 these days, and she has also seen it drop too low at times, so she knows to watch for that. She is now at the lowest weight she has been in over 30 years, including the time period when she was a cycling coach for Team In Training (multiple centuries every year, and the weekly training that went with it). Most importantly, she was able to discontinue taking the medications her doctor had her on. She not quite at ketosis, and is careful not to go that far.
This is great!
 

SpauldingSmails

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How are your post workout recoveries? Do you train fasted?
My recovery is good but I don't have a recovery routine other than get in car, get kids dinner, take shower. I am a little sore and tired usually but feel awesome. I do not train fasted. I am not opposed to it but I train at night or in the afternoon so I've already broken the fast.
 

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The difference is I'm doing only boxing now and zero strength training. That's a lot more aerobic conditioning for longer now as well as more anaerobic training through more intense intervals. My heart rate is higher for longer, moving faster sometimes to fatigue and failure. I was barely conditioning before and that was doing unscheduled prowler pushes or a very short amount of time doing a variation of tempo intervals. But of course I am now much weaker. The strength training gave me some aerobic conditioning but I'll disagree if Mark Rippetoe says all you need to do is squat three sets of fahv and you can successfully box three rounds against a boxer. Specificity!

I was not doing 15-18 hours a week of any training, nor will I ever get that chance. But it would be nice. My training time is the same as before, an hour at a time three to five times a week.
Rippetoe! High intensity training plus heavy lifting - stop with calories in calories out. This type of training will take the weight off if you eat smart. But train all you want - diet is still critical. (Ask Mark)
 

SpauldingSmails

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Rippetoe! High intensity training plus heavy lifting - stop with calories in calories out. This type of training will take the weight off if you eat smart. But train all you want - diet is still critical. (Ask Mark)
My favorite quote is something about how you can't out train a crappy diet.
 

Noodler

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I tried keto for two weeks, lost ten pounds, but it was too difficult to maintain correctly in a healthy way. One problem with keto is keeping it from becoming cream chugging, bacon scarfing, all the wrong fats kind of diet. I'm doing IF now, that's always worked out for me to maintain weight and composition. 8PM to noon is my preferred window. My obstacle with IF it's breaking the fast with healthy food in smart portion sizes and not grazing. I'm also doing low carb, but refrain from weighing my food this time. I'm just trying to keep it clean but it's hard to stay motivated to keep really clean because I'm still losing weight. However, my goal is lower LDL and higher HDL. I'm doing lots of conditioning and boxing now (compared to only strength training and sprinting before) so I'll find out in a couple months if the conditioning plus the cleanish diet is working.
The problem isn't with the Keto way of eating, the problem is that you didn't discard the all your preconceived notions of what's considered "healthy" and the rest of the lies that have been manufactured by a food industry and health system designed to separate you from your money.

The current basis for what is considered "healthy" is based on a lie told many moons ago that fat is our enemy. That in turn launched an entire marketplace of low-fat food substitutes and multiple generations now that have only gotten fatter and fatter. Doctors perpetuate the lie by acting like they understand nutrition and yet continue to prescribe boatloads of statin drugs to fend off the supposed culprit called cholesterol that "must be kept in check". Yet the truth is that cholesterol isn't the problem at all and everyone has a unique amount of cholesterol their body requires; there isn't a "universal" number that makes sense for the entire population.

Do yourself a favor and go get an education about the truth when it comes to the human diet before you bring your own incorrect assumptions and make more false statements about the efficacy of this way of eating.

This goes for @oldschoolskier too. Stop spreading FUD that comes from the mainstream quacks who only want to continue the problem rather than actually fix it.
 

martyg

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I don't want to sound disrespectful, but there are some common statements that are heard among nutritionists that bug me. First the term "fad" - anything that isn't historically American falls into that category. The Mediterranean diet is a fad only because it is new, though it has been in existence for a while in limited parts of the Mediterranean. Keto has been around far longer and it has been used for energy management more than weight control. IF is fad (but very effective). Paleo is the most common diet labeled fad. It just isn't the case.

It is very common for people to gain weight after a significant loss. Some diets can work but require very strict adherence. Some people are not cut out for that regiment. I have found Paleo to be a challenge during maintenance but combined with Keto I do pretty well. I fluctuate up to ten lbs over a year. I hear that's not good, but at least I keep it within a range.

Many of the very serious gyms around the world connect diet to training. Paleo is typically the choice. But IF has been used in that community for years as has Keto. Professional nutritionists have been very slow to change their position, but low carb and high fat is being heard even with cardiologists. IF has become popular with doctors and the like.
I would agree if we were referencing a garden variety nutritionist, and not a high performance nutritionist who directs / works with some of the best athletes inn the world.

The individual that I speak of is also not from the US.

Gyms don't get more serious than the OTCs.
 

SpauldingSmails

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@Noodler , I'm not sure i understand what you are saying I don't understand. I love fat but i don't think consuming lots of cream and bacon is healthy. Was that an incorrect assumption? I thought that olive oil, avocados, nuts, and that sort of fat are great.

As far as my cholesterol, all I said was that my numbers were off. I'm not shooting for a specific number, just higher hdl and lower ldl. I've never minded my total cholesterol though it hovers above and below 200 by 30 points. Is my assumption about HDL and LDL wrong?
 

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I would agree if we were referencing a garden variety nutritionist, and not a high performance nutritionist who directs / works with some of the best athletes inn the world.

The individual that I speak of is also not from the US.

Gyms don't get more serious than the OTCs.
So where are they and with whom do they share their expertise on diet. There are some incredible researchers who are available to anyone who wants to seek their advice. The same is true with fitness experts. The OTC is grand, but it has tremendous limitations in terms of helping people who want to get really fit, people who want to use fitness as part of their serious health plan. Anyone can go jog 10 miles (except me). I have seen plenty of training that goes on at the OTC and I have seen better. Keep in mind the people they work with are the best athletes.
 

johnnyvw

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This is great!
Thanks, it's really been life changing for her to see in real time what her BSL is. And lately she has been seeing that small "treats" (like a couple of french fries) doesn't spike her levels, so her body is starting to normalize her insulin response. I have relatives that say "oh, I'm diabetic too, but I still eat cake"....totally in denial.
 

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Thanks, it's really been life changing for her to see in real time what her BSL is. And lately she has been seeing that small "treats" (like a couple of french fries) doesn't spike her levels, so her body is starting to normalize her insulin response. I have relatives that say "oh, I'm diabetic too, but I still eat cake"....totally in denial.
They eat cake because their doctors don't believe that people can change.

Her success is cool!
 

vindibona1

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My sons been on Keto now going into the 5th year. In his case its not about weight lose, but seizure control so it is very constrained on carbs 26grams per day max.
Just to be clear KETO is dangerous. It can kill you directly and indirectly (we personally know of one indirect death). What makes keto dangerous, Ketogen, the waste product of burning fat, so please be careful under doctors supervision.
Any diet should be well monitored for changes. I was on strict KETO for 6 months and lost 50 pounds in that time. I'm still on a modified version of it, but don't need any more weight loss. I have found that once the weight is in the target area, some of the habits one acquires with the KETO diet help to maintain weight loss. But within 70 days of beginning KETO my blood sugar went from 121 to 106, my A1C went from 5.6 to 5.3 and my cholesterol dropped 40 points. It's always a good idea to have base line tests done and monitor along the way, including liver function.


Keto is expensive. Having food in variety, that tastes good and gives the value of calories you need costs money, think 2 to 5 times the cost of regular heath food.
Learning to carb count in cooking/baking and still have stuff taste good is difficult.
KETO *can* be expensive if you let it be. It doesn't have to be. The cost of beef, chicken and fish and veggies doesn't change. I've learned to substitute bread with variations of microwaved parmesan cheese and low carb tortillas.

USOPC's head nutritionist puts it squarely in the fade category. My wife, who is a full time trainer, has clients that go on it. They loose weight rapidly, and gain it back on 12 - 18 months later. A scenario that many here seem to echo. That should tell you something about its effectiveness.

For a few individuals it will work. But those are genetic anomalies that are few and far between.
The KETO diet is simply an ultra-low carb diet. But honestly, I've been on MANY different diets over the years, Weight Watchers, Sugar Busters, Calorie Counting, and now KETO. I've lost more than 40 pounds several times and ALWAYS gradually put the weight back on. Keto is no different. You have to have a regimine that you stick to, even if it's modified after weight loss goals are achieved. The secret to them all is managing the glucose/insulin cycle. The second secret is calorie monitoring. If the glucose insulin cycles has large sine waves you're basically addicted to sugar and those things that cause spikes and rapid elevation and crashing of glucose. Like all addictions it is hard to cerebralize abstention from eating the bad stuff. If you're stuck in the cycle, breaking it will bring discomfort for a few weeks while you stabilize the cycle with low sine wave action. This is true of all diets. Once you get re-addicted, you're back at ground zero and if you've regained weight you have to do all over again.

Keto, to be done properly must be very strict. I tried it once in 2018 and was not at all successful because I wasn't strict. I was much stricter in 2019 and started again just before Jan 1 and by June had lost 50 pounds. When we went on vacation this last December my eating was out of control and I'm now struggling to get back into the groove. Fortuntely I've only gained 5 pounds and I think I've taken a few off... but I'm not in KETO and paying the price and could fall off the wagon at any time. I am trying to watch what I eat... But honestly, it was easier to be fully on Keto than somewhere in the middle. JMO
 

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Any diet should be well monitored for changes. I was on strict KETO for 6 months and lost 50 pounds in that time. I'm still on a modified version of it, but don't need any more weight loss. I have found that once the weight is in the target area, some of the habits one acquires with the KETO diet help to maintain weight loss. But within 70 days of beginning KETO my blood sugar went from 121 to 106, my A1C went from 5.6 to 5.3 and my cholesterol dropped 40 points. It's always a good idea to have base line tests done and monitor along the way, including liver function.






The KETO diet is simply an ultra-low carb diet. But honestly, I've been on MANY different diets over the years, Weight Watchers, Sugar Busters, Calorie Counting, and now KETO.
Great results.

For me personally Keto is not another low-carb diet. It's a Ketosis Diet and that means the diet puts the individual into Ketosis. This allows for less hunger and greater fat burning and very aggressive weight loss. Low-carb diets are excellent but they are not Keto unless the carbs are very restricted.

The risks of Keto dieting are often talked about but for me it's two weeks and back to low-carb. I skied today and Bullet Proof coffee was the fuel. It easily got me to 2:00pm and then I had a good salad.
 

vindibona1

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Great results.

For me personally Keto is not another low-carb diet. It's a Ketosis Diet and that means the diet puts the individual into Ketosis. This allows for less hunger and greater fat burning and very aggressive weight loss. Low-carb diets are excellent but they are not Keto unless the carbs are very restricted.

The risks of Keto dieting are often talked about but for me it's two weeks and back to low-carb. I skied today and Bullet Proof coffee was the fuel. It easily got me to 2:00pm and then I had a good salad.
Thank you for posting the distinction. I agree totally. When I started KETO (Dec 29, 2018) seriously, after reaching 227 pounds I did it in conjunction with INTERMITTENT FASTING and logging food, trying to keep calorie intake under 1500 calories/day. I lost 19 pounds in the first 3 weeks! "Aggressive" weight loss would be an understatement. Obviously this is an unusual amount of weight loss in such a short period of time. Early in the 2nd month I went to the doctor for follow up blood work (I get a full annual physical in the 3rd week of November every year). So I had good baseline readings for comparison.

One of the things that drove me to KETO was my need to lose a large amount of weight. I had taken the previous ski season off our of fear of imminent injury do to my weight (and age). I developed stenosis of the spine and couldn't even walk 2 blocks without back pain. I did have my back treated by a radiologist, which did relieve the inflammation. But since losing the weight the back pain has not returned.

As I mentioned, I did KETO in combination with intermittent fasting. One of the side benefits of this regimen was reducing inflammation in my arthritic hands and reducing swelling in my left foot which was due to poor blood flow EXITING my foot (good flow in- bad flow out). Inflammation and swelling was reduced by about 50%, perhaps a bit more. I especially feel the difference in my hands. I'm told that intermittent fasting stimulates autophagy (look it up). I know a lot of folks on different diets who do intermittent fasting and experience good results. I would highly encourage anyone to adopt this. Basically, it involves avoiding calorie intake for 14-20hrs daily, though it can be modified or done every other day, or 3 days/week. I do it every day and simply stop eating after dinner and don't eat again until noon. Once you get used to the schedule it's easy-peasy and IMO the easiest way to supercharge any diet.

For those who are skeptical, afraid or just don't want to do KETO, I would highly recommend buying the book "Sugarbusters" and following that diet. It's less restrictive and severe, but slower in weight loss. But I did lose 45 pounds on it (when I was in my 50's), but the rate of weight loss was considerably slower than KETO.
 

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I am very reluctant to use Keto for long periods of time. I know people who do and it's not something I want to experiment with. If I was really in Ketosis for a long time I would loose too much. If I wasn't in Ketosis then I wouldn't be in Ketosis. You either are or you aren't. Paleo is just fine for keeping level.

IF: I was told that bullet proof coffee does not count as a meal. So one bullet proof and wait until 2:eek:o. That makes it a lot easier and it calms the hunger. I have no capacity for dealing with hunger. IF is great. Not sure if this is true, but the source is good one.
 
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