• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
21,894
Location
Behavioral sink
I agree in broad terms that cheaper labor is not necessarily worse labor if you get it by moving countries. I am not sure how far that logic goes - I think there are advantages to controlling your own production process and that control can be easier with geographic proximity. There is also a question of how much the people managing the factory care about product quality.

Maybe I’m agreeing with your last point but with a different emphasis? The more a brand shops for cheap labor, the more I assume the brand has a corporate structure where manufacturing is not regarded as important. That is what is worrying. Processes are not necessarily easy to replicate in new places.

If we have a point of agreement it is this - the internal corporate structure is paramount, more important than cheap labour shopping, more important than geographic proximity. Having tight control of production processes is key to everything here.

We have very definite examples of production processes being transferred with great success. VW-Škoda is the top story here - notice the Cz partner. If Kästle/Sporten works out half as well as that did, everyone should be beyond happy.
 
Last edited:

AngryAnalyst

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 31, 2018
Posts
713
If we have a point of agreement it is this - the internal corporate structure is paramount, more important than cheap labour shopping, more important than geographic proximity. Having tight control of production processes is key to everything here.

We have very definite examples of production processes being transferred with great success. VW-Škoda is the top story here - notice the Cz partner. If Kästle/Sporten works out half as well as that did, everyone should be beyond happy.

As long as we're arguing by auto industry anecdote - Toyota had a big safety recall related to US models around 2010.

I do not fully remember the details but it is worth mentioning Toyota was a company with legendarily perfect manufacturing and design in Japan. People literally studied their manufacturing model because of how amazing it was in business school classes. That excellence seems not to have carried over to the US plants for some reason - I don't know whether it was a design or manufacturing issue.

I do not think this anecdote proves Americans are bad at building things and Japanese are good at it, but I do think it suggests there are problems with trying to replicate corporate cultures across country lines.

In a more ski industry related example - Jason Levinthal outsourced production of 4FRNT skis to Elan when he acquired the company. This caused some problems when he reduced base thickness on a popular model this year and inadvertently softened the ski by a lot. The American indie brands that make their own skis in country don't really have comparable problems.

Again, to be very clear, I am not saying outsourced production is horrible, that CZ is bad at making ski equipment or anything else like that. However, manufacturing is a really important part of ski making. I think it is absolutely reasonable to ask whether Kastle will be able to maintain quality with the new process, especially with a model line that has many more SKUs.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Philpug

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
I still don't understand why there is such a problem here with some of the skis being made in the Czech Republic, these were the skis that were the ones being produced in Slovania at Elan. Now instead of being built by someone else, they are being built under the supervision of the brnads owner. How is that bad?
 

procos

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Posts
234
Location
Michigan
I still don't understand why there is such a problem here with some of the skis being made in the Czech Republic, these were the skis that were the ones being produced in Slovania at Elan. Now instead of being built by someone else, they are being built under the supervision of the brnads owner. How is that bad?

A few things which I am sure you know because you own this site.

1) Some people like to pontificate about dumb stuff
2) Some people like to argue about anything
3) Some people think they know more than anyone else
4) Some people have way to much free time.
 

Swiss Toni

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Posts
586
All the major Austrian manufacturers make skis in eastern Europe. Head makes most of its skis in the Czech Republic, Atomic / Salomon have a factory in Bulgaria that has the capacity to make a million pairs of skis p.a. Fischer and Blizzard both have factories in the Ukraine. So, I don’t think quality will be an issue. At the moment labor costs in the Czech Republic are considerably lower than in Austria, but as they have full employment they are increasing rapidly.

Sporten was principally an OEM manufacturer, only 15-20% of the skis they produced were sold under the Sporten brand, over the years they have made skis for many of the major brands.

When Kästle was relaunched in 2007 the plan was to reach sales of 30,000 pairs p.a. within 3-5 years and to break even by 2010. They only ever managed to sell around 18,000 pairs a year and I don’t think they ever made much of a profit, in 2011/12 they made a loss of 1.6 million euros on a turnover of around 6 million. It is a successful brand in the US but it has underperformed in most other markets.
 

Alexzn

Ski Squaw
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
1,956
Location
Bay Area and Truckee
So, which skis will be made at Kastle CZ, and which will be made in Kastle Austria? Does "Austrian technology" on the ski mean Kastle CZ or is this just an attempt to muddy the waters? In the meantime, Kastle's $1,000+ skis compete with $700 Volkls that proudly display "made in Germany" on their topsheets and $700 Blizzards that say "made in Austria". This is of course apples and oranges comparison, but I have a hard time imagining that people won't notice that.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Philpug

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
So, which skis will be made at Kastle CZ, and which will be made in Kastle Austria? Does "Austrian technology" on the ski mean Kastle CZ or is this just an attempt to muddy the waters? In the meantime, Kastle's $1,000+ skis compete with $700 Volkls that proudly display "made in Germany" on their topsheets and $700 Blizzards that say "made in Austria". This is of course apples and oranges comparison, but I have a hard time imagining that people won't notice that.
I wil double Czech (see what I did there ;) ) but I believe it is RX, MX and FX are from Austria, the rest will come from the CZ factory.
 

AngryAnalyst

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 31, 2018
Posts
713
I wil double Czech (see what I did there ;) ) but I believe it is RX, MX and FX are from Austria, the rest will come from the CZ factory.

If Kastle was equally confident in both production facilities, why put the performance lines in Austria and the lower end stuff in Czech? Is the capital cost of moving presses prohibitive? If they are redesigning them anyway (because new skis) would it matter?

I think it is hard to reconcile the observation they have elected to separate production in this way (performance lines at home, down market away) and a view that they don't anticipate any difference in production quality. To be clear I have not read the entire thread so perhaps this was addressed already. I can think of reasons you might keep the split (ex: unions) but those are sort of special cases.

I still don't understand why there is such a problem here with some of the skis being made in the Czech Republic, these were the skis that were the ones being produced in Slovania at Elan. Now instead of being built by someone else, they are being built under the supervision of the brnads owner. How is that bad?

I'm not bothered by it at all. I already found myself moving away from Kastle products because I am enjoying free ride shapes with more tail rocker lately. I would also admit, petty as this sounds, that my perception of Kastle as a brand has been negatively impacted by the number of Jerry's I have seen on them during recent trips to Vail and Aspen. I guess I'm more of a ski hipster than I would have guessed (or at least I dislike most of the people who end up at Aspen and Vail).

That said, I really do believe production processes matter. I really am skeptical that the move from luxury mass/whatever you call Kastle's existing strategy to full line is easy or likely to happen without some marginal degradation in production quality. I hope they keep standards up in the MX line because I still think they are great skis for their intended purposes and losing that option would leave us all poorer, except perhaps Stockli ogwink
 

procos

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Posts
234
Location
Michigan
I would also admit, petty as this sounds, that my perception of Kastle as a brand has been negatively impacted by the number of Jerry's I have seen on them during recent trips to Vail and Aspen. I guess I'm more of a ski hipster than I would have guessed (or at least I dislike most of the people who end up at Aspen and Vail).

ogwink

Why would you ski there then? So many great options not sure why you would go somewhere that you don't like the people. That is why I go to JH, Alta and Snowbird. Great snow and great people.
 

procos

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Posts
234
Location
Michigan
However I lived in Aspen from 1991-1994 and the locals were the best. The tourist were a pain in the ass but the locals were great people. Also keep in mind most of the Jerry's in Aspen on Kastle's rent them. Kastle has a huge footprint in Aspen because that is Dav's hometown. He ain't no Jerry.
 

AngryAnalyst

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 31, 2018
Posts
713
Why would you ski there then? So many great options not sure why you would go somewhere that you don't like the people. That is why I go to JH, Alta and Snowbird. Great snow and great people.

I vastly prefer JH, Alta, Snowbird and Whistler to Vail or Aspen. I have been to Vail and Aspen for idiosyncratic reasons not related to personal preference.

I'm in Vail for work occasionally and because I can expense flights (+ corporate hotel rates) it's a pretty cheap trip. It is a nice enough place the convenience and cheapness make it worthwhile in my mind.

Aspen was an odd familial compromise. I do like Aspen Highlands and it got me interested in touring so I don't regret the trip. Have some friends who are regular visitors and could see myself going back.

That said, if I was planning a trip for only my wife and I, I would take all of the places you mention over either Aspen or Vail assuming comparable costs.
 

AngryAnalyst

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 31, 2018
Posts
713
However I lived in Aspen from 1991-1994 and the locals were the best. The tourist were a pain in the ass but the locals were great people. Also keep in mind most of the Jerry's in Aspen on Kastle's rent them. Kastle has a huge footprint in Aspen because that is Dav's hometown. He ain't no Jerry.

Fair, as a one time visitor I think I got a lot of the tourists and few of the locals. Oddly, some people I know with second (or third or nth houses) there are quite nice, it's the Little Nell crowd that drove me flipping nuts.
 

procos

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Posts
234
Location
Michigan
I vastly prefer JH, Alta, Snowbird and Whistler to Vail or Aspen. I have been to Vail and Aspen for idiosyncratic reasons not related to personal preference.

I'm in Vail for work occasionally and because I can expense flights (+ corporate hotel rates) it's a pretty cheap trip. It is a nice enough place the convenience and cheapness make it worthwhile in my mind.

Aspen was an odd familial compromise. I do like Aspen Highlands and it got me interested in touring so I don't regret the trip. Have some friends who are regular visitors and could see myself going back.

That said, if I was planning a trip for only my wife and I, I would take all of the places you mention over either Aspen or Vail assuming comparable costs.

Highlands is where I became a good skier. I used to ski in the bump competitions there every friday. Probably skied there over 300 days in the 3 season I was there. I personally hate Vail and will never ski there but I do see how it works out for you. Sounds like with work and other things it is convenient so I can't blame you at all. Sometimes you just gotta enjoy being outwest. I just find it flat. I have been spending 2 trips a year to Snowbird/Alta for the past 15 years. However I am 50 now and don't need night life. So if you want night life and steep skiing it is actually hard to beat Aspen. However they get 1/2 the snow that Little Cottonwood Canyon gets. I live in Michigan so not even sure why I would bitch about any hills out west. But when I have a choice to spend my money I vote Alta/Snowbird. Enjoy the rest of the season.
 

AngryAnalyst

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
May 31, 2018
Posts
713
I just find it flat.

We agree on that - Vail is a great place to be an advanced intermediate. It gets boring quick if you're used to Snowbird or Jackson terrain and the snow situation doesn't help.

That said, I've heard tell of some fun hike to stuff near Vail. I was unable to locate a willing and able guide on the most recent trip unfortunately. Super bummed I'm missing the epic season Jackson, Tahoe and Utah are having.
 

procos

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Posts
234
Location
Michigan
Yeah I went to Snowbird January 25-31 and was sandwhiched between 2 huge storms. Go figure. I have to plan my trips in advance with 2 kids in travel hockey and coach one of the teams. So I can't just fly out when the storms come. That will be the case in a few years though. Looking forward to that.
 

procos

Putting on skis
Skier
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Posts
234
Location
Michigan
OK, if FX and MX are built in Austria, I rest easy. So why does it say Austrian Technology instead of Made in Austria? Seems like a marketing oversight.

Who cares. Ski them if you like them buy them if not don't. If you are skiing the right areas no one should see your top sheets anyways they should be covered in snow. If someone made great skis and they said Made in Jerry's basement I would still buy them. All seems really silly.
 

Beach Bum

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Posts
378
OK, if FX and MX are built in Austria, I rest easy. So why does it say Austrian Technology instead of Made in Austria? Seems like a marketing oversight.

I read this to mean FX and MX will still say Made in Austria, as they do now. While the others that will/may be made in CZ will say the Austrian technology part. But we shall see.

I hope they don't mess the MXs. I ski my 189 as hard as my 6'4" 225lb frame allows and they never cease amaze me. The perfect ski, for me, dare I say.

That said I did rent FX 95HP one day in St Anton and wasn't as sold as I am on my MX88s
 

Swiss Toni

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Posts
586
So, which skis will be made at Kastle CZ, and which will be made in Kastle Austria? Does "Austrian technology" on the ski mean Kastle CZ or is this just an attempt to muddy the waters? In the meantime, Kastle's $1,000+ skis compete with $700 Volkls that proudly display "made in Germany" on their topsheets and $700 Blizzards that say "made in Austria". This is of course apples and oranges comparison, but I have a hard time imagining that people won't notice that.

OK, if FX and MX are built in Austria, I rest easy. So why does it say Austrian Technology instead of Made in Austria? Seems like a marketing oversight.

The vast majority of Kästle skis were made by Head and Atomic, these skis will in future be manufactured in the Czech Republic. They will only make the limited-edition and the ID4 skis at Hohenems.

As far as I’m aware the amount of local content required before a company can put “Made in Austria” on their products isn’t legally defined (in Switzerland its 60%), but generally the Austrian ski manufacturers put it on their skis when they are pressed in an Austrian factory. For skis made outside Austria the skis sometimes don’t have any indication of where they are made on them, sometimes they are marked “Made in the EU” and sometimes they have “Engineered in Austria” or something similar on them. There is usually a sticker on the shrink film packaging that says where exactly the skis were made, but the retailer usually removes it before putting them on display.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about, Kästle now has control of manufacturing, when production was out sourced, they didn’t. As labor costs will now be lower, they might well improve the quality of the components used to make them. When they were losing lots of money, they seem to have started using block glued cores, which are cheaper than cores made from rotary cut veneers.
 

Dakine

Far Out
Inactive
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
1,155
Location
Tip of the Mitt
When an old trademark is purchased and manufacturing is moved to a low cost country the usual suspicion is that the hedge fund guys are trying to milk the trademark with low quality goods.
It is possible the new gen Kastles will be even better than those made in Austria.
But, as Mark Twain said: "The contest doesn't always go to the strong or the race to the swift but that's sure as hell the way to bet."
There will be a lot of eyes on the PugSki reviews of the new gen product and I sure hope that what gets tested is representative of retail manufacture.
I don't know if we are at the point where reviewers have to randomly select product from retail racks to get what is really being manufactured but I sure hope folks are careful about the possibility of ringers.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top