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Mike King

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Regarding moving forward with the ankles in the same position, think about the biomechanics. If the ankle does not dorsiflex or plantar flex while the leg is extending, what happens to the center of motion? It moves forward. So, extension of the knee and hip is a movement pattern that moves the CoM forward relative to the base of support. Similarly, flexion of the knee and hip moves the CoM aft relative to the BoS.

Adding in ankle flexion you have the primary mechanics to manage the relationship of CoM and BoS.
 

Skisailor

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Regarding moving forward with the ankles in the same position, think about the biomechanics. If the ankle does not dorsiflex or plantar flex while the leg is extending, what happens to the center of motion? It moves forward. So, extension of the knee and hip is a movement pattern that moves the CoM forward relative to the base of support. Similarly, flexion of the knee and hip moves the CoM aft relative to the BoS.

Adding in ankle flexion you have the primary mechanics to manage the relationship of CoM and BoS.

I agree. Now, square what you have just said with the idea that we should ski with a "constantly closed ankle". When we now flex to release, which way is the COM moving at the start of the turn?

I am trying to clarify how much ankle range of motion is contemplated by the phrase "constantly closed".
 

Mike King

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I agree. Now, square what you have just said with the idea that we should ski with a "constantly closed ankle". When we now flex to release, which way is the COM moving at the start of the turn?

I am trying to clarify how much ankle range of motion is contemplated by the phrase "constantly closed".
Aft, which is what you want. In the initiation, forward, which is what you want.
 

HardDaysNight

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Adding in ankle flexion you have the primary mechanics to manage the relationship of CoM and BoS.

The relationship of the CoM to the BoS is what causes the ankle to close in the pressure phase by appropriately aligning the force vector to bend the boot. It’s not done by muscular effort of the tibialis anterior unless one skis in slippers!

(Anatomically, ankle flexion is the movement of pointing the toes like a ballet dancer. Extension is the movement referred to as dorsiflexion. This unexpected terminology is because of the rotation of the lower limbs during embryonic development.)
 

markojp

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Being skeptical is good, but there's a line when skeptical begins to teeter into dismissive. Dismissive without applying ideas on snow is self-limiting. I can tell you from experience that skiing with a function amount of dorsidlexion isn't likely to come up in most clinics you'll participate in or lead.

'Functional' is key. Functional tension in the core doesn't limit, but enhances functional mobility, stability, dynamic balance. So too with the ankle. Dorsiflexion isn't about crushing the cuff of the boot. It's about maintaining shin contact. Be skeptical, sure. It's part of testing ideas and movements that are just beyond the familiar. Then test it out on a low visibility flat light day and tell us how it goes.

In my personal experience, even if I don't initially buy in, I'll certainly test and experiment with an idea that initially seems odd. There's one I started with last season that took awhile, but I finally 'got it'. The next step is to find a way to modify how to present it to others. I'm not there yet, and I'm not sure the person I heard it from has it wired tight either, but it's fun and ultimately leads to growth.
 
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Skisailor

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Being skeptical is good, but there's a line when skeptical begins to teeter into dismissive. Dismissive without applying ideas on snow is self-limiting. I can tell you from experience that skiing with a function amount of dorsidlexion isn't likely to come up in most clinics you'll participate in or lead.

'Functional' is key. Functional tension in the core doesn't limit, but enhances functional mobility, stability, dynamic balance. So too with the ankle. Dorsiflexion isn't about crushing the cuff of the boot. It's about maintaining shin contact. Be skeptical, sure. It's part of testing ideas and movements that are just beyond the familiar. Then test it on a low viability flat light day and tell us how it goes.

In my personal experience, even if I don't initially buy in, I'll certainly test and experiment with an idea that initially seems odd. There's one I started with last season that took awhile, but I finally 'got it'. The next step is to find a way to modify how to present it to others. I'm not there yet, and I'm not sure the person I heard it from has it wired tight either, but it's fun and ultimately leads to growth.

Not sure if the dismissive comment was aimed in my direction or not. But in case it was, if I was being dismissive, I would not be taking the time to post on this forum to seek a better understanding of this.

In my experience, when people are discussing technical questions in good faith and comments like that start to show up in the discussion, they usually just exacerbate any actual skepticism.
 

JESinstr

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I have quickly gone through this thread and I might have missed it but I see no input directed to the point that, through the leverage inducing design and capabilities of the boot, you are able to pressure the center of the ski without having to move your COM over it. I detect that in much of the above opinions, the assumption is made that the only way we create and apply fore and aft pressure is to try and align our mass with the part of the ski we want to affect.

Because skiing is performed on a constantly moving platform, It would make sense that priority 1 is to establish a "Home base" ... a solid and reliable BOS configuration that we can maintain with confidence and get to on demand. I am in the camp that this configuration is established between the back of the balls of the foot and the heel. My simplest argument would be: If there is an earthquake with the ground moving back and forth underneath, would you rather be a Greek Column or an Egyptian Pyramid?

In regards to the flex complex (ankles, knees and hips), I like to say that the ankles are most important (which appears to be the focus of opinions above) but the hips are most critical in that core tension plays a key role in the relationship between the balls of the femurs and the pelvis hence the control and location of our upper mass. Likewise, tension created by dorsiflexion plays a key role in the bottoms up alignment and relationship of the flex complex. All of which goes back to the ability to establish and maintain a solid "Home Base of Support"
 

Uke

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Just allow the body to move into the new turn while the feet are still completing the old turn and by the time the feet enter the new turn the body will be ahead of the feet. No need of a movement of a body part to 'get forward'.

uke
 

Steve

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(Anatomically, ankle flexion is the movement of pointing the toes like a ballet dancer. Extension is the movement referred to as dorsiflexion. This unexpected terminology is because of the rotation of the lower limbs during embryonic development.)

This doesn't jive with both what I've come to believe and what I just found online. Can you explain why you said that please?

"Dorsiflexion refers to flexion at the ankle, so that the foot points more superiorly. Dorsiflexion of the hand is a confusing term, and so is rarely used. The dorsum of the hand is the posterior surface, and so movement in that direction is extension. Therefore we can say that dorsiflexion of the wrist is the same as extension.

Plantarflexion refers extension at the ankle, so that the foot points inferiorly. Similarly there is a term for the hand, which is palmarflexion."

and...

"Ankle dorsiflexion is a fancy term that essentially means moving your foot so that your toes get closer to your knee. (Ankle plantar flexion is essentially the opposite, where you point your toes downward and away from your knee.)"
 

Skisailor

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Just allow the body to move into the new turn while the feet are still completing the old turn and by the time the feet enter the new turn the body will be ahead of the feet. No need of a movement of a body part to 'get forward'.

uke

Really love this Uke!!

This totally jives with what I try to do in my skiing. Allowing the CoM to move downhill is a key aspect of making turns like this. I've posted before that my mentor loves to say "we go downhill and we bring out skis along with us". :)

My confusion has come about in trying to square this approach with what I started hearing in clinics just this past season - where the idea of moving the CoM downslope and letting the feet catch back up was discouraged in favor of "just tip and move along the length of the ski" language.

I'm trying to figure out where the disconnect is.
 

Uke

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Skisailor,

The direction of the motion of my body may very well be more across the slope than down-hill but I create just enough difference in direction between my feet and body so that they cross and I go from standing on one set of edges to standing on the other set of edges. This 'lateral' movement is only a few feet but the skier may move forward 15or 20 feet in the direction the ski is pointing so I can see how moving "along " the ski could be one way of feeling it or trying to convey this idea.

uke
 

Skisailor

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Understood.

Yes - the CoM movement is influenced by turn size and shape and also by conditions. A later aspect of mastering this for me was to realize - oops, 3 dimensional snow which slows the response of my skis will affect the direction of my body motion as well. Duh. :)

But yes the downhill CoM movement will be more subtle and patient in a longer radius turn. I think that the "movement along the length of the ski" is still being miscommunicated or misinterpreted in our clinics. CoM movement downhill was even questioned for short radius turns in at least one clinic I attended.

This helps though. Thanks.
 

Mike King

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What I thought about putting in my comment above was that the process of extending moves you forward — you don’t have to do more (like manipulate your upper body) to get forward. And in response to the comment about bending the boot, it isn’t necessary and usually is quite detrimental to attempt to deform the boot. It leads to the classic ski instructor problem of being too far forward either the tail washing out.
 

Fishbowl

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Just allow the body to move into the new turn while the feet are still completing the old turn and by the time the feet enter the new turn the body will be ahead of the feet. No need of a movement of a body part to 'get forward'.

uke

Sorry if asking creates confusion, but could you explain “allow”.

My presumption is that you are saying that we are somehow preventing this natural movement from happening, in effect suggesting that the body moving into the new turn is a passive act?

I understand and agree with the movement pattern, but the turn of phrase is questioning my belief of the mechanics involved.
 

Uke

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Fish,

I have to provide a force to move my body to the right or left. On its own it will want to follow a straight path so when I stop providing the force that moves it right or left I allow it to follow a ballistic path and cross the path of the feet. It certainly doesn't feel passive at speed, more like getting slingshotted to the other side. But does it require a strong physical input from me? No.

uke
 

HardDaysNight

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This doesn't jive with both what I've come to believe and what I just found online. Can you explain why you said that please?

"Dorsiflexion refers to flexion at the ankle, so that the foot points more superiorly. Dorsiflexion of the hand is a confusing term, and so is rarely used. The dorsum of the hand is the posterior surface, and so movement in that direction is extension. Therefore we can say that dorsiflexion of the wrist is the same as extension.

Plantarflexion refers extension at the ankle, so that the foot points inferiorly. Similarly there is a term for the hand, which is palmarflexion."

and...

"Ankle dorsiflexion is a fancy term that essentially means moving your foot so that your toes get closer to your knee. (Ankle plantar flexion is essentially the opposite, where you point your toes downward and away from your knee.)"

It’s merely an anatomical convention based on the direction of movement towards the ventral (front) or dorsal (back) surface. Forward movement in a sagittal plane is usually flexion and backward movement, extension. Owing to rotation of the lower limb during development the front of the leg is actually its dorsal aspect; backward movement of the leg extends the hip and flexes the knee and downward movement of the toes is flexion. Upward movement at the ankle joint (towards the dorsal surface) is extension (dorsiflexion). It’s less confusing to use dorsiflexion (closing) and plantar flexion (opening). Also irrelevant to what’s being discussed in the thread so I’m sorry I brought it up!
 
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JESinstr

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Really love this Uke!!

This totally jives with what I try to do in my skiing. Allowing the CoM to move downhill is a key aspect of making turns like this. I've posted before that my mentor loves to say "we go downhill and we bring out skis along with us". :)

My confusion has come about in trying to square this approach with what I started hearing in clinics just this past season - where the idea of moving the CoM downslope and letting the feet catch back up was discouraged in favor of "just tip and move along the length of the ski" language.

I'm trying to figure out where the disconnect is.

Possibly the disconnect is that you, your mentor and many other high level skiers posting here have developed your edging and the rest of the skill set to the point where you can reliably sense your situation and predict where you need to get to in order to join up with the ski depending on your intended trajectory and a host of conditions affecting the development of the turn.

As a teacher, I am first going to assess the skill level of my client and go from there based on fundamentals. A skier has to first learn the turn mechanics of being with the ski before they can learn to get ahead of it. The ski is the tool. How a master level user of the tool utilizes it can be quite different from a novice.
 

Fishbowl

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Fish,

I have to provide a force to move my body to the right or left. On its own it will want to follow a straight path so when I stop providing the force that moves it right or left I allow it to follow a ballistic path and cross the path of the feet. It certainly doesn't feel passive at speed, more like getting slingshotted to the other side. But does it require a strong physical input from me? No.

uke

I think for those at my level of skiing, the natural instinct is for the upper body to want to follow the skis. Which is one of the reasons you may see a lack of full counter in advancing students. From that perspective, allowing the body to move into the new turn whilst the old turn is still completing, does take a concerted effort, both physically and mentally. I feel that this is what I do, but it is "conscious competence" and far from effortless.

I only bring this up in the hope that these focus points are not just for the pleasure of debate by instructors, but will somehow make their way down to the rank and file of skiers hoping to improve their technique.
 

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