It's Electric, sort of

[Bill Talbot]

So without rehashing all the shortcomings of the EV's being shoved in our direction lately, I've noticed that another part of the discussion that seldom is heard about is WHERE and HOW is the electricity to charge these cars coming from. If making the 'juice' is dirtier than a very clean I/C engine what exactly is being gained? Yes, that was a rhetorical question...

Saw this picture and just had to laugh.

What you are looking at is an EV 'Quick charge' station... powered by a.... wait for it....
diesel generator. The car owner will have 45-50 minutes to think about that before he can continue his trip for another 150 or so miles, maybe.

 

[crgildart]

Ya but at home they probably charge it off their wind turbine and solar panel power wall. 50 years from now the roads will be solar panels and vehicles will suck juice from the roads and be self driving, thus you won't have to stop and wait at all except to piss and get food.

 

[Near Nyquist]

This charge point is right in the middle of the outback in Australia
Power is usually generated by diesel locally on site for the roadhouse.

This article explains the rational behind this
https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/

 

[tball]

Yeah, you might as well bring the generator with you, like the Honda Insight hybrid that primarily runs of the electric motor with the engine generating electricity unconnected to the drivetrain.

I like that the Insight doesn't look like a hybrid or EV. If I was tortured into a long commute with high gas prices, I'd be thinking about one.


It's affordable and the rear seats fold down with a nice pass-through for skis if fuel costs ever impeded my skiing.

 

[James]

Depends on the cleanliness of the generator. Saying the fuel consumption is equivalent to a Bmw 3 series says nothing about the pollution. Maybe it’s worse than a cheating VW.
Nor does it include the fuel to get the fuel to the generator.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

This charge point is right in the middle of the outback in Australia
Power is usually generated by diesel locally on site for the roadhouse.

This article explains the rational behind this
https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/

Sounds great, it only took them nine hours to charge the ten cars with it.

 

[scott43]

I'm thinking outback.. Why not solar???

 

[tball]

I'm thinking outback.. Why not solar???

You'd need to store the solar energy and batteries don't do well in the heat.

I guess you could have a generator to run an A/C to keep them cool.

 

[scott43]

Bury em?

 

[Bill Talbot]

Bury em?

If you are referring the EVs, then yes, by all means.

 

[cantunamunch]

I'm thinking outback.. Why not solar???

Because chargers like that are waaay under-utilized - like maybe 2-3 charges a day*. At $6-$10 a charge it takes ~6 years to pay back the cost of a mains-supplied fast charger, let alone one with high up-front investment like solar.


*which I reckon is still optimistic. The one in front of our office building gets maybe 3 charges a week.

 

[Near Nyquist]

Because chargers like that are waaay under-utilized - like maybe 2-3 charges a day*. At $6-$10 a charge it takes ~6 years to pay back the cost of a mains-supplied fast charger, let alone one with high up-front investment like solar.


*which I reckon is still optimistic. The one in front of our office building gets maybe 3 charges a week.

You should visit Silicon Valley,
I swear every other house has a Tesla parked in front charging
Maybe it’s the EV carpool lane stickers cause it’s the only way to get around sometimes

 

[chilehed]

So without rehashing all the shortcomings of the EV's being shoved in our direction lately, I've noticed that another part of the discussion that seldom is heard about is WHERE and HOW is the electricity to charge these cars coming from. If making the 'juice' is dirtier than a very clean I/C engine what exactly is being gained?

My understanding is that the generator emissions per kilowatt-hour are a lot lower for a major power plant than they are for an in-vehicle IC engine, and I can certainly see how a padmount diesel generator in the bush would be at least as good as one in a car.

But that's not the entire picture. Any reasonable environmental impact analysis needs to consider the entire waste stream, and the stream associated with battery production and disposal is not trivial.

50 years from now the roads will be solar panels and vehicles will suck juice from the roads...

That strikes me as a very optimistic timetable. I'd be very surprised if we've even developed the necessary materials by then, much less a manufacturable design.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Ya but at home they probably charge it off their wind turbine and solar panel power wall. 50 years from now the roads will be solar panels and vehicles will suck juice from the roads and be self driving, thus you won't have to stop and wait at all except to piss and get food.

It sure will be expensive to resurface those roads every 10 (if you're lucky!) years.

 

[cantunamunch]

You should visit Silicon Valley,
I swear every other house has a Tesla parked in front charging
Maybe it’s the EV carpool lane stickers cause it’s the only way to get around sometimes

I believe you; what I don't believe is that any installed fast charger does more than 5 charges a day let alone the 20+ that would truly accelerate network development.

 

[James]

My understanding is that the generator emissions per kilowatt-hour are a lot lower for a major power plant than they are for an in-vehicle IC engine,

With Australia still digging coal like there’s no tomorrow, there’s consequences. Last year Australian coal exports were $66Billion. Despite opposition, a huge new mine in Queensland was just approved in June. But who knows what’s going to happen as putting in a rail line has had some rail companies declining. But there’s an Indian Billionaire behind the project.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...oal-commitment-as-controversial-mine-approved

 

[Erik Timmerman]

https://www.businessinsider.com/wor...kR5KPbugONe6rqYdn4DEgwpsN7zrN-0GNVOFxXOhMARf0

 

[James]

https://www.businessinsider.com/wor...kR5KPbugONe6rqYdn4DEgwpsN7zrN-0GNVOFxXOhMARf0

Ok, so next idea.


It's astonishing we went from the Mercury Redstone, the size if a gondola tower, to the massive Saturn V in less than 10 years.

Why couldn't roads have embedded coils and the cars magnets? We could at least steal power from the cars. Maybe?

 

[skibob]

So without rehashing all the shortcomings of the EV's being shoved in our direction lately, I've noticed that another part of the discussion that seldom is heard about is WHERE and HOW is the electricity to charge these cars coming from. If making the 'juice' is dirtier than a very clean I/C engine what exactly is being gained? Yes, that was a rhetorical question...

Saw this picture and just had to laugh.

View attachment 78675

What you are looking at is an EV 'Quick charge' station... powered by a.... wait for it....
diesel generator. The car owner will have 45-50 minutes to think about that before he can continue his trip for another 150 or so miles, maybe.

In addition to what others have posted, you are missing something else. An ICE powertrain loses a great deal of energy getting power to the wheels. About 40%. I am ignoring the inefficiency with which any ICE converts fuel into power. This is just power lost getting energy to the road.

Electric loses virtually none. So, if you take a diesel generator--its a little more efficient at converting fuel to energy than a gas engine, but lets ignore that. The alternator it turns to generate electricity is 94-96% efficient.

So, using a diesel generator to charge an EV may not be nearly as efficient as , say using solar panels to charge an EV. But its still a lot more efficient than driving an ICE vehicle.

EVs are not without hidden costs (as @chilehed mentions). But their most important feature (IMHO) is not the lack of tailpipe. Its the efficiency. Oh, and they are a helluva lot of fun to drive.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

In addition to what others have posted, you are missing something else. An ICE powertrain loses a great deal of energy getting power to the wheels. About 40%. I am ignoring the inefficiency with which any ICE converts fuel into power. This is just power lost getting energy to the road.

Electric loses virtually none. So, if you take a diesel generator--its a little more efficient at converting fuel to energy than a gas engine, but lets ignore that. The alternator it turns to generate electricity is 94-96% efficient.

So, using a diesel generator to charge an EV may not be nearly as efficient as , say using solar panels to charge an EV. But its still a lot more efficient than driving an ICE vehicle.

EVs are not without hidden costs (as @chilehed mentions). But their most important feature (IMHO) is not the lack of tailpipe. Its the efficiency. Oh, and they are a helluva lot of fun to drive.

I'd like to know where you are getting your numbers because I am not buying that. We know that ICE engines do not convert 100% of the energy from their fuel, but I don't think that an electric drivetrain is all that much different from any other. It still has a transmission, differential, CV joints, etc. so why do you think that the traditional car would have so much more loss?