Is this binding plate a problem?

[LiquidFeet]

@Philpug and everyone else, can that plate be used with other bindings? Is it transferrable to other skis? Or is this a "system ski" type set up?

And thanks again to all for this good information.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It is transferable. When I wore out my RXs I had it pulled and it's now being used on my wife's MX70s.

 

[LiquidFeet]

OK then. Here's what I've got:

1. I've got a good plate which can be transferred and used indefinitely. Weirdly shaped mounting screws though.
2. These skis, with the binding/plate set-up as it is, should function as I expected them to. Since they didn't, it must have been me, or the skis.
3. I'm assuming it was the skis and not me. I will check the bases and base bevels as suggested by people here.
4. Once on snow, I'll give them another try and go on from there.

Thanks. I knew I could depend on this community.

 

[François Pugh]

What exactly was it you didn't like about the skis?

 

[LiquidFeet]

My memory is vague. They wouldn't turn. Can't remember if it was a hard snow day, but probably. I know how to put skis on edge, but given the way they were behaving I probably chose to go slowly out of caution. I remember I wondered if I would get back safely to the lodge. Took a second shorter run on gentle terrain, no change. Put them away for two years.

Note: I have other front side Kastle skis and love them for some purposes (very short 152 MX 70s). I have 155 FIS slalom Atomic Redsters and love them.

I want to fix this for this upcoming season.

 

[François Pugh]

A few things come to mind. If you were coming off a softer ski with a much shorter turn radius you would find these hard to turn. If someone had detuned the tips the skis would resist initiating the turn. Also if someone was using them as mogul skis they may have detuned and put a big base bevel and little side bevel. Also if the skis are worn out, they won't transmit your force to the tips and may have lost some torsional rigidity. How do they do in the twist test, i.e. how much can you twist them by hand (wear gloves), how much can you flex them by hand.

If they pass the hand flex/twist test, check the tune, then run them fast down a blue and see what they do; you probably have enough skill now to make them do what you want regardless (you just won't like them if they are shot).

 

[KingGrump]

Weirdly shaped mounting screws though.

Torx Bit

This is the set I travel with.

Granted the folding set is not optimal for installs. You can find the size and get a dedicated straight handle Torx driver for that..

given the way they were behaving I probably chose to go slowly out of caution. I remember I wondered if I would get back safely to the lodge. Took a second shorter run on gentle terrain, no change. Put them away for two years.

Most likely the tune.

While we were at Squaw past April, @Rainbow Jenny mentioned she has a pair of Head Super Joy but don't liked the way they skied. The skis looked great. Freshly tuned. Mamie took the skis out for a day to check it out. Mamie were scared silly on the groomer but had a blast with it in the bumps. We concluded it was the tune. Can't see it but definitely felt it. Threw it in for a tune at Start Haus. Skied like a dream afterward.

Throw it in for a base grind and full tune at a reputable shop and you'll be all set.

 

[cantunamunch]

A lot of Rossi/Look demo plates used Torx too, back in the Zenith era.

 

[Doug Briggs]

OK then. Here's what I've got:

1. I've got a good plate which can be transferred and used indefinitely. Weirdly shaped mounting screws though.
2. These skis, with the binding/plate set-up as it is, should function as I expected them to. Since they didn't, it must have been me, or the skis.
3. I'm assuming it was the skis and not me. I will check the bases and base bevels as suggested by people here.
4. Once on snow, I'll give them another try and go on from there.

Thanks. I knew I could depend on this community.

To clarify a bit:

• The plates are binding specific; you must use the bindings they came with
• Finding a jig to match the plate might be difficult as these were factory mounted (IIRC) and quite often these specialty plate jigs are not available even to dealers

@Philpug , are these accurate statements?

 

[cantunamunch]

BUT on the upside, the plates are self - jigging, meaning the holes are the same no matter what the boot size.

Often one can simply mark the holes longitudinally on tape running across the ski, then use a jig with similar hole spacing in non-standard orientation to guide the bit.

 

[Philpug]

To clarify a bit:

• The plates are binding specific; you must use the bindings they came with
• Finding a jig to match the plate might be difficult as these were factory mounted (IIRC) and quite often these specialty plate jigs are not available even to dealers

@Philpug , are these accurate statements?

Yes, correct on both points. There might be less than a dozen jigs for this binding in North America. There was a KTi14 also available.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Take 'em to a ski shop and see what they say. A well practiced eye will see things that we can't. From your posts you're a good technical skier and would notice smaller imperfections on hard snow.

I had some skis that were way concave, and probably worn from just a little heel pushing over the years (got them as demos, I never heel push......) They worked fine until they didn't. Even after a base grind and edge set at a shop I didn't feel safe on ice.

 

[Doug Briggs]

BUT on the upside, the plates are self - jigging, meaning the holes are the same no matter what the boot size.

Often one can simply mark the holes longitudinally on tape running across the ski, then use a jig with similar hole spacing in non-standard orientation to guide the bit.

True that. I've done plenty of free hand mounts, but not all shops will go that route. And I'm not in @LiquidFeet 's usual territory.

 

[Pdub]

I have never understood how a long, thick metal plate on such a short ski would not interfere with flex. It seems it would make that ski really stiff.

And I always wondered if Rossi junior race skis are so popular with lighter skiers because the plate is discontinuous, i.e. there are separate toe and heel plates. Older Volkl and Atomics always seemed to have those burly continuous plates, which occupy a lot of real estate on a shorter (sub 160) ski. Interestingly, I just noticed the 2019 Volkl and Atomic models now have separate toe and heel plates.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Modern plates have slotted holes for the screws that allow them to slide along the ski. The actual plate itself may not flex, but it sliding along the ski will permit the ski to flex in approximately the designed pattern. Also most modern plates are two pieces; one piece under the toe, one piece under the heel. Some are connected with some type of spring/piston mechanism.

Plate design comes down from racing where performance is key. There may be tradeoffs in ski flex from plates, but the advantages of the plate for enhanced edge engagement far outweigh the negligible degradation of the ski's flex pattern.

 

[cantunamunch]

True that. I've done plenty of free hand mounts, but not all shops will go that route. And I'm not in @LiquidFeet 's usual territory.

Fortunately @epic sorta is and has apparently had it done.

I have never understood how a long, thick metal plate on such a short ski would not interfere with flex. It seems it would make that ski really stiff.

In addition to @Doug Briggs ' explanation above, have you noticed an innate problem with 2 piece plates yet?

That's right - flexing the ski changes the effective forward pressure on the binding.* So that one-piece plate on OP's skis means much more consistent forward pressure within the heelpiece.

*If you don't believe me, there's an explanation of the problem on VSS' website - look under flex effect. Counterintuitive, innit? Softer (and shorter, if we're concerned about underfoot bend) skis do better under one-piece plates.

 

[Doug Briggs]

...
In addition to @Doug Briggs ' explanation above, have you noticed an innate problem with 2 piece plates yet?

That's right - flexing the ski changes the effective forward pressure on the binding.* So that one-piece plate on OP's skis means much more consistent forward pressure within the heelpiece.

*If you don't believe me, there's an explanation of the problem on VSS' website - look under flex effect.

Absolutely right. A ski without plates has this issue, too. That's why forward pressure settings are SOOOO important to consider when setting up bindings. It is as important as, if not more so, than DIN setting for retention.

It is also a reason for Tyrolia's FreeFlex system (and others). The heel piece is designed to move in a track with the flex of the ski independently of the actual forward pressure mechanism.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Fortunately @epic sorta is and has apparently had it done.

@Mike Thomas did the mount. I'm sure he can do it again. I'm pretty picky about my skis and he hasn't let me down. Yet...