Is my brand new Shift binding defective?

[ScottB]

Just picked up my new AT skis with Atomic shift bindings the other day. Trying out my new Atomic Hawx XTD boots in the bindings and getting used to the flippy dippy levers. All in all I am very impressed with the shift binding.

Now to what I am not sure is typical behavoir or a defect. When I go to tour mode and put the boot inserts in the pins everything is fine. You then flip up a lever on the front of the toe to go into tour "walk mode". There are two positions of walk mode. The first flip up seems fine. Its the second flip up that seems to be a problem. I feel like I am about to break the lever it takes so much force and secondly the friction in the pin goes crazy and the when I rotate the boot it sticks in whatever position I leave it in. The boot does rotate, but with a significant friction that I know I will feel in use. On the first click the boot rotation is friction free and the force it takes to move the lever is pretty normal.

I wonder what is going on, is this a break in issue? I don't think so, as I assume the boot should rotate on the pins virtually frictionless. What my Mech. Eng. training tells me (and looking through my magnifying goggles at the pins) is the angle on the pins is not perfectly lined up with the boot inserts and in full lock mode (second click) the compliance in the pin arms is removed and the mis-alignment causes the friction. It may break in over time, but that means it wears in.

Anyone out there with shifts notice this??

 

[ScottB]

OK, let me try again.

I am brand new to AT gear.
Question: Once you put your boot into your pin tech binding, the toe is in the front pins and the heel is free. Do your AT boots rotate virtually friction free on the pins wether in toe "lock mode" or toe "releasable mode"?? My shift's have two positions on the toe piece lever. Have you ever had to have your "pins" aligned?? (not your spine)

Hopefully more clear what I am asking

 

[jmeb]

It's hard to follow, but there shouldn't be noticeable friction in your pins during walk mode.

There is no break-in for tech bindings.

I have seen some people overcam the toe into lock mode on other tech bindings. Not sure if it is possible on shifts.

 

[GNARpts]

I should have my Shifts in and mounted in about a week and I'd be happy to give a better response then.

However, what you're describing does not sound right. From my knowledge (and when I demo'd a set at the end of last season) there should not / are not two positions on the toe for walk mode. It's just a push down for entry (to separate the pins), and a single pull up to lock in the toe.

Can you post some photos? I'm pretty curious what you're seeing.

 

[Philpug]

Our Shifts arrived....now what to put them on...Hmmmm.

 

[jmeb]

Our Shifts arrived....now what to put them on...Hmmmm.

Go full Reno: Wildcat Tour 108.

 

[GNARpts]

Our Shifts arrived....now what to put them on...Hmmmm.

Wailer 106's here...really looking forward to putting these to the test this season!

 

[Mike Rogers]

I have been on 4 tours with my shifts, and a half resort day.

It is a bit of a struggle to ratchet the toe to the second lock position. I really have to pull it, but it seems to be getting easier. I haven't noticed any issues with the pivot. It is always smooth.

I also have never popped out on the first lock position. It's fine for kickturns and sidehilling. It's useful if you get caught in a slide on your uphill...you want the skis to release. But, if you are over sketchy terrain, there is comfort in the total lock of the second position.

For what it is worth, the step into the heel in ski mode was pretty stiff starting out too. Stiff enough for a hand assist in soft snow. Not so bad now.

Take them to the shop and see what's up. It could be a boot problem too, but you should definitely have smooth motion while in walk.

 

[Philpug]

Go full Reno: Wildcat Tour 108.

I was thinking going full Renoun... Citadel 106. See what I did there?

 

[ScottB]

However, what you're describing does not sound right. From my knowledge (and when I demo'd a set at the end of last season) there should not / are not two positions on the toe for walk mode. It's just a push down for entry (to separate the pins), and a single pull up to lock in the toe.

Can you post some photos? I'm pretty curious what you're seeing.

Here is a better description than mine of the way the toe works:

- In terms of toe release while touring, there are two clicks on the 'lock-out' for touring. Just past the first click the touring mode is releasable. A decent twist at that point will pop them out. The second click is full lock-out. The DIN setting doesn't affect this. I could pop out on the first click if making aggressive kick turns or kicking in skintracks on icy slopes. This will prove useful should you ever have the misfortune of getting caught in a slide on the way up as the toe in first click position should release.

The second click is really hard to engage and when engaged there is a noticable friction in the pin/boot joint. I am rotating the boot by hand and notice the friction. It may not be as noticable when standing on the ski.

I took the skis back to the shop and they agreed the lever is hard to flip and there is more friction. One tech claimed this was a "feature" for better touring. The other was honest and said he didn't notice this before. I emailed Atomic and am waiting to hear back. We did try another binding and another boot, and all combo's had the increased friction. It might be minor enough to ignore, I can't tell yet. It is noticable when not in the boot and rotating it by hand. When you let go of the boot at 45 deg. pivot it stays there. On the first click it flops down to the heel stop. I will post some pic's tomorrow.

 

[GNARpts]

That's really interesting, did not know that at all and certainly wasn't shown/told that last season...granted I didn't have them on for a very long time.

Please post what you hear as I'm sure there's a lot of people reading this in my situation - waiting, with a pair on the way!

 

[Mike Rogers]

So I had a look at my bindings. There is a slight bit of resistance when fully locked out. which i guess makes sense given the additional pressure on the pins. I don't notice it at all when touring. My boot has to be a fairly steep angle...way more than 45 degrees for them to not fall down under their own weight, and they still pivot with pinkie force when fully locked.

The resistance on my locked out Dynafit Radicals is a bit more than the sift. Again, I didn't notice until I looked at it now.

Is this really jammed, or just a little bit more friction? If you are still moving your boot with ease, it is probably a non-issue.

It sounds like you are having issues with "significant force" required to move...that isn't right.

If it isn't the case of being overly sensitive about new gear, then there must be an issue with the boot fittings or the bindings. The pivot needs to be easy....jamming the boot or moving it with significant force is not a feature anyone would want.

 

[Mike Rogers]

Some images for reference

Unlocked

First lock

Full Lock

Lowest angle for balanced boot on locked out shift

Lowest angle for balanced boot on locked out dynafit radical

 

[JohnnyG]

 

[ScottB]

Hello, took some pic's and did some more "evaluation" of my new bindings. I do think there is a slight issue with pin to boot friction when the shift toe piece is set to the second click, "no release". I would not go so far as to call it a defect, but I think it is something that is an undesirable trait. The boot does not require significant force to rotate, just slightly increasesd force compared to the first click. I will ski on mine tomorrow and will see if I notice it while skiing.

I did put my boot on my foot and step into the binding. On the first click it was frictionless and when I lifted my foot the boot rotated on the pin and the tail of the ski stayed on the ground. With it on the secon click, when I lifted my foot the friction prevented complete rotation and the tail of the ski lifted off the ground. I would not expect this to normally happen, but it may not be even noticable while skinning per Mike Roger's comments.

I have emailed both Atomic and Salomon a few days ago and no response. Tried calling the Salomon contact number on the web and got several busy signals and gave up.



Shift binding on first "tour" click, notice angle of pins, as the arms spread out the pin angle changes

binding on second "lock" click

binding on first click

binding on full spread mode, this is when you insert the boot onto the pins, then let go of the lever and it squeeses inwards

my boot on first click, any lowering of the heel by hand and the boot falls back low friction, free rotation, the boot is balancing itself

pins going into boot insert. notice pin angle is now straight or inline with boot insert, lever is in "lock" mode

This is the boot angle with lever in second click, lock mode. Friction in pin is holding boot up, lower the heel by hand from here and it drops down all the way. push lightly and the boot goes back down. Maybe its like a bike shifter, some are more friction free and smoother than others. This is just a pin in a dead ended hole. I guess the squeeze force is creating the friction and with a little wear it will loosen up.

 

[Mike Rogers]

I think you'll be alright. Go for a tour and see if you notice any friction. With your body weight stepping down and a strong forward stride, it will probably feel smooth.

 

[Slim]

I just tried my wife’s Shift bindings: both with her Cochise DYN and with my old Maestrale RS, there is no noticeable friction in tour mode. Both boots flop up and down completely free.

So yes, I would say, noticeable friction is not correct. However, it might wear in a bit with use.

 

[Mattadvproject]

I'm a little late getting to the party on this one. I just went downstairs to the garage to perform a little scientific experiment. I have last years Shift's and this year's Shift's. I haven't used my new ones yet, I'm still using last year's setup until I go overseas and am in better snow. Now a couple of things that I must point out that the Salomon sales agent that I work with told me......

Firstly, the two position lever gives you two levels of release when in touring mode; easy and hard. Please note that in hard (the up position), the toe wings are not fully-locked out, there is still release, but it's at higher tension. Secondly the only change to the binding from this year to last year (that I am aware of) is that they put a little cosmetic (2 little arrows) on the new Shift's to designate the two positions of the lever in the touring mode.

I got my boots and put them into both of the Shift's (this years and last years). On both bindings, there was a noticeable increase in tension on the arms and more friction in the cups/pins as a result. This is normal though, it's held in place with more internal force. If I lifted the boot vertically in the stiffest setting of the tour mode, then the heal of the boot does want to stay up in the air. A slight nudge and it falls down though. There is less resistance in both bindings when the arms are set on the lower pressure tour setting and the boot does not stay up in the air like it does in the stiffer mode.

I toured on that binding all season last year with the binding set on the stiffest setting in tour mode. I didn't notice any extra friction/resistance when touring on it, when body weight comes into play. I don't really think it's an issue, unless you have bent pins that are really over doing the friction. I didn't notice a bedding in period myself, they seemed to work just fine out of the box. Maybe yours is a slightly tighter fit and a little bit of use they will smooth out. Check and see if the little recess on the pins (used to clear out ice from the plugs on your boots when then pins are engaged) are nice and smooth and there is no extra metal flash exposed.

The energy required to lift the touring lever all the way up when the boot is in the system is quite high. It's a lot of work. If you can learn to use your ski pole (most likely the extended notch on the front of the ski pole grip on a touring pole, the ski basket is likely too soft on most poles to get that lever all the way up) to lift the lever all the way up, it's way less effort and a lot quicker for your transitions. There is a small notch on the underside of the tour lever that a ski pole handle should be able to grab onto. Pull up hard and that lever should lift all the way up. That's normally the last part of my transition (unless engaging the climbing aid) when I am about to start skinning.

Someone else on Pugski also pointed out the small gap between the ski and the binding, underneath the front of the toe and back at the heal and they were concerned if this was a defect as well. I looked at my bindings from last year and I have that slight same gap too. I have it on the new ski/bindings as well. This has not caused any problems though. I never noticed it when I was skiing and certainly it wasn't a sign that the binding wasn't screwed down fully onto the deck. I would would think that there is a slight gap to allow the ski to flex more around the boot. It hasn't been a problem. That's about all I can think of so far....

Hope this gives you some more ideas @ScottB.

- Matt

 

[Ken_R]

Hello, took some pic's and did some more "evaluation" of my new bindings. I do think there is a slight issue with pin to boot friction when the shift toe piece is set to the second click, "no release". I would not go so far as to call it a defect, but I think it is something that is an undesirable trait. The boot does not require significant force to rotate, just slightly increasesd force compared to the first click. I will ski on mine tomorrow and will see if I notice it while skiing.

I did put my boot on my foot and step into the binding. On the first click it was frictionless and when I lifted my foot the boot rotated on the pin and the tail of the ski stayed on the ground. With it on the secon click, when I lifted my foot the friction prevented complete rotation and the tail of the ski lifted off the ground. I would not expect this to normally happen, but it may not be even noticable while skinning per Mike Roger's comments.

I have emailed both Atomic and Salomon a few days ago and no response. Tried calling the Salomon contact number on the web and got several busy signals and gave up.



Shift binding on first "tour" click, notice angle of pins, as the arms spread out the pin angle changes

View attachment 59399

binding on second "lock" click
View attachment 59400
binding on first click
View attachment 59401

binding on full spread mode, this is when you insert the boot onto the pins, then let go of the lever and it squeeses inwards
View attachment 59402

my boot on first click, any lowering of the heel by hand and the boot falls back low friction, free rotation, the boot is balancing itself
View attachment 59403

pins going into boot insert. notice pin angle is now straight or inline with boot insert, lever is in "lock" mode
View attachment 59404


This is the boot angle with lever in second click, lock mode. Friction in pin is holding boot up, lower the heel by hand from here and it drops down all the way. push lightly and the boot goes back down. Maybe its like a bike shifter, some are more friction free and smoother than others. This is just a pin in a dead ended hole. I guess the squeeze force is creating the friction and with a little wear it will loosen up.
View attachment 59405

Did you try this with another boot?

 

[Andy Mink]

The toe of the Scarpa boot looks, um, well loved. Is there a chance that the holes the pins go in got burred or knocked out of alignment? I have Tecnica Cochise but never hooked them up to a touring binding. I'm not sure how the holes are anchored in the lug or if they are a press fit directly into the plastic.