Is it the new bindings? Halp!

[Monique]

My skiing from Friday to Sunday sucked, for the most part. There were several factors. I wonder if you could help me sort them out.

Last week, I had @Doug Briggs replace the Marker Griffons on my Santa Anas with Attack13s. He also did a full tune, grind and restructure, the works.

I noticed right away how much faster and smoother my skis were. I'm not entirely sure that worked out to my advantage. I felt like I was going way faster than was comfortable a lot of the time. On the other hand, I passed people with ease on the flats. Note, by the end of the day Sunday I already put some pretty big scratches in the bases, so I'm guessing that's not a factor anymore, if it was. Anyway, one possibility is that I was going faster than comfortable, so I got in the back seat, and then the skis just had a field day with me.

Another factor: the new bindings couldn't go where the old ones were, so given the choices of 1cm forward or 6mm back, I chose forward. I have never paid any attention to mount points and have always just had them mounted where indicated, on both men's/unisex and women's skis. But forward of the Santa Ana which presumably is already forward - is it too much forward? Could that make me feel all over the place?

Another factor (?): Ramp angle? Do the Attack13s have a different ramp angle than the Griffons? Again, not something I've ever paid much attention to. I have had good days in Z10s and Griffons and Squires and Fritschi Eagles.

Another factor: This weekend was the first that the upper mountain was open. Some of the terrain we were on just hadn't been skied much or at all, and there is a lot of heavy over light snow action going on. The first of my many falls this weekend was skiing along into Tom's. I already felt off, but it didn't help when I hit a pocket of several feet of softer snow and went tips down, double ejecting. There was also a lot of variable/crusty stuff. Those conditions weren't easy. And they were my first double blacks of the season. But on the other hand a lot of the skiing was great conditions, soft on a solid base. Other people were crowing about how great the snow was. I just ... wasn't. I was too busy falling all over the place.

Places I felt good: Friendly groomers. And this one run in the middle of Horseshoe, probably actually the steepest thing I skied this weekend, but beautiful windbuffed with no tracks. Just slightly firm, maybe a little chalky, very easy to edge.

Unfortunately, for various reasons, I didn't take it back a notch this weekend and ski less challenging terrain. Instead, I was so excited by the new terrain - as were the people I was skiing with - that I just kept throwing myself at the terrain, becoming more and more defensive.

So, can I blame the bindings or the forward mount? If so, what to do? I'm half tempted to buy a new pair of Santa Anas and start over, but without knowing the culprit for sure, that is a fool's errand.

I do love how easy it is to get into the Attack13s. I had plenty of opportunity to get back into my bindings on extremely soft, falling apart snow, in several cases thigh deep, and I know that if I'd had the Markers, I would have been crying (sooner).

 

[Philpug]

Ya know...Some days you got it..some days you don't. Chalk it up to the latter and look forward to a new day before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Monique]

Ya know...Some days you got it..some days you don't. Chalk it up to the latter and look forward to a new day before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I won't be able to ski till new year's weekend (waaah!), but my plan is to take it super easy to start and see what feels right from there. But it would be hard to overstate how messed up and off I felt this weekend.

 

[SBrown]

You can still remount the same skis, and yeah I'd be tempted to do that. I felt that the mounting position was maybe a little forward on the Santa Anas I skied, so if you moved them forward again, that's pretty big. Try it back 6 mm.

 

[Mike Thomas]

The delta is different between the Attack and the Griffon, that could certainly be a big factor. I kind of doubt 1cm forward threw you off on it's own. I'd ski them on moderate groomers to see if you can 'get the feel' and if they still feel 'off' try lifting the toe with a shim, probably 2 to 3 millimeters ought to bring you back to Griffon-land.

 

[Monique]

You can still remount the same skis, and yeah I'd be tempted to do that. I felt that the mounting position was maybe a little forward on the Santa Anas I skied, so if you moved them forward again, that's pretty big. Try it back 6 mm.

Even 1cm? It just ... sounds so small.

How could you tell that it was pretty far forward? What are the symptoms?

I'm going to try them again in a couple of weeks when I can back to the snow, see if I can make them work. Third drill pattern would pretty much do these skis in for any remounts, but on the other hand they're so shredded that I doubt I'd fetch much anyway, no matter how well they still ski. If I changed my mind again - can one reuse old drill holes?

I would still like to know - is there a ramp angle difference between the Griffins and the Attack13s?

 

[Monique]

The delta is different between the Attack and the Griffon, that could certainly be a big factor. I kind of doubt 1cm forward threw you off on it's own. I'd ski them on moderate groomers to see if you can 'get the feel' and if they still feel 'off' try lifting the toe with a shim, probably 2 to 3 millimeters ought to bring you back to Griffon-land.

So, the shim goes under the toe of the binding itself?

 

[SBrown]

Even 1cm? It just ... sounds so small.

How could you tell that it was pretty far forward? What are the symptoms?

I'm going to try them again in a couple of weeks when I can back to the snow, see if I can make them work. Third drill pattern would pretty much do these skis in for any remounts, but on the other hand they're so shredded that I doubt I'd fetch much anyway, no matter how well they still ski. If I changed my mind again - can one reuse old drill holes?

I would still like to know - is there a ramp angle difference between the Griffins and the Attack13s?

I mean, just standing on them, it felt like less tip and more tail. They skied fine, but I wouldn't want to go any farther forward than that. I demoed some Soul Riders a couple years back that were too far forward for me. Symptoms were ... I was never comfortable on them. Moved it back about 1 cm, felt better, would have moved it back another but was done for the day.

And yes, if you add that to a different delta, things might feel pretty awkward. Definitely ski them on groomers first to see what you think, though, before moving again. You might find a demo pair and play with the position before the final remount.

 

[Mike Thomas]

Yes, shim goes in between the ski topsheet and the binding. Easy enough job for any competent shop.

 

[James]

Do you have any other skis with the Griffon on them?
If so, put boots on, click in and compare stance with the Attack. Have someone take a photo. Mirrors are probably not good because you're going to shift things while looking.

 

[Monique]

Do you have any other skis with the Griffon on them?
If so, put boots on, click in and compare stance with the Attack. Have someone take a photo. Mirrors are probably not good because you're going to shift things while looking.

I do - my Sick Day 110s. Good suggestion.

 

[SkiEssentials]

Ya know...Some days you got it..some days you don't. Chalk it up to the latter and look forward to a new day before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree with Phil on this one. There are some days I just don't feel right. No changes to equipment, no changes to conditions, sometimes I just don't ski as well as I can. Everything you changed in that setup is so minute I'm guessing you just weren't "in the groove" so to speak.

 

[Monique]

I agree with Phil on this one. There are some days I just don't feel right. No changes to equipment, no changes to conditions, sometimes I just don't ski as well as I can. Everything you changed in that setup is so minute I'm guessing you just weren't "in the groove" so to speak.

I kind of blame the tune. Doug's amazing fabled tune. I think I got to sliding so fast it freaked me out and then I got in the backseat, my skis flew forward, and I just lost it.

BUT so here's the question. If I get the Attack 13 and it *is* a ramp angle issue - that's easy to fix, right? Without any drilling?

 

[SkiEssentials]

Haha, sounds like we're on the same page

You are correct, that would be a relatively easy adjustment.

 

[Monique]

I kind of blame the tune. Doug's amazing fabled tune. I think I got to sliding so fast it freaked me out and then I got in the backseat, my skis flew forward, and I just lost it.

BUT so here's the question. If I get the Attack 13 and it *is* a ramp angle issue - that's easy to fix, right? Without any drilling?

Ack! I got my locations confused. Thought I was responding to the message and not the public thread. Anyway I want to emphasize that the tune was smooth as silk and all sorts of wonderful. There was some miscommunication within the shop and I'm not sure the edge angles are the same as they started out (thanks @SkiEssentials for suggesting this). Anyone know what the Santa Ana edges are from the factory? Is that published info on ski manufacturer sites?

 

[James]

Anyone know what the Santa Ana edges are from the factory? Is that published info on ski manufacturer sites?

Edges are what you want them to be. First off, from the factory they could be all over the place instead of their spec. 2nd the spec is what you want it to be. It's not like a car engine but (I guess) more like a tennis racket. Calling @segbrown. What's the "correct" string tension or type of string, weave etc? Well there's the one it came with and what you want.

It's likely they're 1 base 2 side. But going on some search for factory angles is beyond useless since it's just causing mind games and there's no understanding of what edges actually do. Stop going down that road. Basically, flat base, no hanging burrs (towards base is the problem ones. Towards side is just annoying), some wax, good to go. Edge angles fine tune response. On soft snow they don't matter so much or at all.

Unless the edges were egregious or you had a hanging burr on the bottom, they would have no effect on the issues you're talking about. Plus, weren't you skiing soft snow? Still less effect.
Better glide from proper base prep can change your timing. Speed should come from line not sticky bases.

Did you have trouble walking to the lift? It's weird when you have a ski with good glide.

 

[Monique]

Did you have trouble walking to the lift? It's weird when you have a ski with good glide.

Now that you mention it, yes. But cat tracks and long flats were like butter.

Of course, they're already scratched to hell.

And - proper turn shape is my nemesis. It's a big focus for me this season.

 

[James]

One's bases do not have to be perfect. You'll destroy the ski by getting it ground all the time to make them look good. Keep waxing and deburring at least.

 

[Doug Briggs]

The edges were tuned to 1 and 2, the bases flat and structured with Medium Powder; an excellent structure for CO. Prior they edges were significantly burred from use and the bases flat, but not structured.

The moving of 1 cm on a race ski might be noticeable but on this ski, negligible. Moving the mount forward 1cm would make them slightly more turny vs moving them 6mm back which would have made them ever so slightly less responsive. The old bindings could be remounted or the new ones moved to the 6mm back position without any problems. These skis are wide enough to maintain structural integrity with three sets of holes.

FWIW, my position references are from the recommend mount point on the ski. The new bindings had to be relocated forward or aft due to conflicts with the holes with the previous bindings.

Ramp angle is easy to adjust with a shim under the binding toe and longer screws. No re-drilling required.

I don't notice you describing the problems/issues you experienced other than the double eject, which was likely not anything to do with changes to the ski. I'm glad the bindings worked properly when needed.

 

[Jeff N]

I'm thinking the snow is the culprit. "Heavy snow over light," AKA upside down snow, is a beast. You sink like a rock, and if you manage to get them floating, it is super easy to tip dive even massive skis.

This was much discussed in discussion related to Wolf Creek about ten days ago. I was tip diving a set of 195cm Gigawatts (dimensions 163-135-141), and if that is possible, I think a ski of any width in the 160-170 range is going to sink and tip dive and send anyone not weighing roughly 80 lbs over the handlebars on a regular, routine basis.

@Monique, I know you are waffling around ski length, but when it comes to flotation in powder, the ski doesn't know how tall or short you are or how strong your legs are, it just knows how much you weigh. I'm not exactly svelte, which is why when it comes to powder skis, I almost always am buying the longest produced- I need the extra girth and length to lower the speeds needed to float the ski.

In my eyes, shorter skis make for problems really skiing and enjoying powder, whether one is male or female. With skis too small, the choices in powder are:

1. Ski at a speed above one's level of comfort in order to float the skis. Risk forward double ejects because the too-small ski is going to LOVE to tip dive if you get bounced just a little too far forward.
2. Don't get the ski on plane, sit on the heels to bring the tips up, and blow up your quads.

Or, one can graduate to a bigger ski. A ski in the 180+ range may seem huge and heavy and feel like it takes a lot of leg work, but any real dedicated powder ski is going to have a lot of rocker, making the ski a lot more manageable than it would first seem. Worries about not having enough leg strength to move the ski are warranted, but it is my opinion that you will blow your legs out sitting on the heels of too-short skis in deep pow MUCH FASTER than you will blow your legs out by strapping on a ski long enough to float your weight, whatever one's weight may be.

Whether one sees enough regular deep powder days to actually justify buying a ski to achieve low/moderate speed flotation is another issue entirely. A 195cm 135mm waist ski has pretty limited utility on anything but "can't touch bottom" pow.