Phuuuf, I have a lot to learn!
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Is education an adequate antidote to back-country risk-taking?
- Thread starter LiquidFeet
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I disagree, although it could be a matter of definition. When I hear ’judgement’ I think of people making a calculated, reasoned decision based on the availability information and their personal goals s and risk acceptance.
The issue with ’decision making’ out in the field, is that our mind uses mental shortcuts to make these decisions easier. In certain situations these ‘shortcuts’ lead to a decision that is different from our ‘good judgement’. This is what McCammon termed the heuristic traps.
’Judgement’ can certainly be taught, but the on the spot decisions are much harder to modify. The ’heuristic traps’ are a result of the way our brain works, it is not a ‘skill’, including a ‘life skill’. There are tools like checklists and such that can be used to circumvent these though.
But perhaps, you are talking about ’judgment’ more as a level of risk acceptance, in which case life experincees(like witnessing an accident) might certainly affect that.
This is precisely the issue when trained backcountry users are involved in (avalanche) accidents.
Using your terminology, sometimes people say: “those people exercised bad judgment”, but that is incorrect. In many cases, if you asked those same people to judge the situation remotely, they would make a ‘safe judgment’, Yet, they made a poor decision out in the field. It is not their ability to judge the situation that is failing, it is their decision making. And that is directly related to the ‘hardwired’ heuristic traps.
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To the extent there is an “answer” that would have to be yes. Over the past decade the number of people going into the back country has exploded-by at least an order of magnitude-and yet rates of avalanche accidents and deaths have fallen. There have been recent years in which no deaths occurred in Colorado or Utah and very few nationwide. Big picture, it’s hard to attribute that to anything but education. All the caveats recorded in posts above are valid so don’t bombard me with their repetition.I am not a backcountry skier, but I am interested in risk-taking and how that happens.
Risk-taking behavior applies even to novices who just took a lesson from me, making decisions as they head out to ski on blue groomers with friends.
I just re-read this article (https://www.outsideonline.com/1915051/colorados-loveland-pass-avalanche-lessons-learned) on the five deaths of highly-educated backcountry adventurers in the 2013 Loveland Pass avalanche.
The fact that the deaths came to highly informed people prompted this question in the middle of the article:
"Is backcountry education able to mitigate the level of risk riders take on?"
Here's another article on this subject, the 2012 avalanche at Tunnel Creek where 3 died. The group that headed out was experienced and well-informed and prompted this description in the article: “It was a very, very deep, heavy, powerful, strong group of pro skiers and ski industry people.”
In both of these deadly avalanche events, highly informed people died. Given the current discussions about avalanche safety behavior, I thought it might be useful to isolate this question.
Snow Fall: The Avalanche at Tunnel Creek
Fresh powder beckoned 16 expert skiers and snowboarders into the backcountry. Then the snow gave way.www.nytimes.com
Is education about avalanche safety the answer?
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For me good judgement and good decision making mean the same thing so it is definitional.
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The safest thing to do in the backcountry is to bring a woman. Guys will do any stupid thing (Hold my beer and watch this!) but they will always protect a woman. Women typically have better judgment about risks too.
dm
dm
Agree. I addition I find that the for me the biggest risk factor is to not be a local. Traveling to a place with a wish list of what to accomplish is a lot different from the "can do it next weekend if it's not sure about the conditions today"-attitude that locals usually will have. So finding local women to tour with will increase safety.
As for the OP-question I think education in many cases can increase risk. Having no clue and no equipment/training then many will limit them self to terrain below 30 degrees until spring. But having done some training/education there will be a desire to use the skills to get to ski steeper slopes on winter snowpack. Snowpack/risk evaluations are unpredictable enough that this would increase risk. And rescue skills help improve the probability of a good outcome, but are certainly no guarantee. So the end result could be more risk, but better skiing and living a richer life.
In any case education is probably helpful against doing the stupidest stuff, like terrain traps on recently wind loaded slopes.
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The answer needs to have a question. If the question is "Can we ELIMINATE avalanche deaths by education" then the answer is obviously no. The answer is "Do not let public go out of bounds, police it, fine them, make it a felony, etc, and groom all inbounds slopes." If the question is "Can we MITIGATE it", then hell yeah. Imagine people rushing to a steep BC slope like when the patrol drops the rope on a new run. It's called a massacre.
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Having a woman in the group likely makes it safer for the men in the group but the opposite is true as well, that is, having men in the group subjects women to more risk. Some of the change in group dynamics cuts both ways as well. So I guess it depends on your point of view and the specific partner.
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Despite the best education and training, poor or misguided decision making is usually the root cause of any mishap or tragedy. In private aviation, there is a spike in incidents after the pilot has attained a certain number of hours flight time. It can be attributed to many factors, i.e. overconfidence in their abilities,( you don't know how much you don't know) ,great expectations in outcomes, (you hear what you want to hear) ignoring bad news (turning a bad forecast into a good one in your mind), but it boils down to bad decision making.
Great topic here, and one that has been gaining traction in my own mind. I just finished an AIARE 1 class this past weekend, and I don't remember the last time I learned so much in such a short amount of time. It truly shifted my thinking about terrain and snowpack.
In the grand scheme of things, yes, I think education and awareness is the answer. But that's not to say the education and reporting systems are flawless and cannot be improved.
Statistics do show that a group with at least one female is more likely to make better decision making. But I think this change to your statement is key ^. It's not that women necessarily have better judgement. Women are taught to be more cautious from a young age, and weigh risks differently (right or wrong, this is how society has evolved). I think it's this different mentality that increases the group's safety; and this different type of thinking could be supplied by certain male partners as well.
In the grand scheme of things, yes, I think education and awareness is the answer. But that's not to say the education and reporting systems are flawless and cannot be improved.
Statistics do show that a group with at least one female is more likely to make better decision making. But I think this change to your statement is key ^. It's not that women necessarily have better judgement. Women are taught to be more cautious from a young age, and weigh risks differently (right or wrong, this is how society has evolved). I think it's this different mentality that increases the group's safety; and this different type of thinking could be supplied by certain male partners as well.
Thread Starter
TS
I’m reminded of the young ones that did AST with me. I could see it in their eyes and from the way they spoke. They were educated. They were trained and ready to head into the backcountry.
Experience is what’s needed, a little wisdom.
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Short answer: No, education is not the answer. It is, however, an absolutely essential part to mitigating the risk.
BC skiing is a risk-inherent activity, you can’t do it without facing risk. Education can give you tools to mitigate the risk, experience and mentoring will give you more tools. But a key component is what you do with the tools. I had a pretty long career in wildfire suppression and management and associated aviation operations. It turns out that heuristics or human factors are very very important when it comes to risk mitigation. Here is a paper done on heuristics involved with recreational winter activities.
And an article that serves as a summary.
Human Factors in Avalanche Incidents : Articles : SummitPost
Human Factors in Avalanche Incidents : SummitPost.org : Climbing, hiking, mountaineeringwww.summitpost.org
People looking for risk-free recreation would do well to avoid backcountry skiing.
Getting educated on heuristics is a darn good start to mitigating risk and understanding our own psychological decision making. We tend to be our worst enemies out there and most accidents are tied to heuristic short cuts or just plain out ignoring obvious red flags because desire is over riding rational thinking.
There isn’t ever going to be an “answer” or cure/end all for the dangers involved with back country skiing and although that can be tragic it’s also, in part the activities appeal.
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And some level of complacency I’d imagine.
The last bunch of years I’ve been very adamant about reminding myself that I don’t have everything figured out and the mountains are going to throw me fast balls from time to time that I didn’t see coming. And they sure do!
I like to think I’m getting much more safe and conservative than I used to be since I’d like to stick around and continue to enjoy this stuff. One of my favorite things to do is turn back and bail on objectives if things aren’t feeling right. It actually feels awesome to back off in those situations.
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Relevant film, not that there’s answers. Most of these people come from, or gravitated to, the alpinist environment.
Andreas Fransson- killed in avalanche with J.P. Auclair in South America. (I think they were on the way up)
Estelle Balet, killed by avalanche in April, a few weeks after winning FWT in snowboard.
18mins + :
Andreas Fransson- killed in avalanche with J.P. Auclair in South America. (I think they were on the way up)
Estelle Balet, killed by avalanche in April, a few weeks after winning FWT in snowboard.
18mins + :
A different framing of the question could be: Does a person with training survive more frequently when making a visit into avalanche terrain than someone with no training? Is there a point at which what more training stops/starts influencing survival rates?
Skiing is an addiction at a certain point and most of the serious BC skiers I have known are true junkies ( I am too at the core but don't hike for my turns anymore). As they gain more education they are able to tell the good stuff from the bad, most of the time. It is the unexpected or the ignored sign that has a way of occasionally ending the story, or just bad luck. Consider some of the best places to find the really good snow: steep faces, gullies with extra blown in snow, spines where the downwind side has caught the refill, below a cliff too steep to hold the snow, a rollover on a face. Each of those is a terrain trap whether your inbounds, side country or backcountry, but they hold that next high we are looking for.
Taking classes, reading, training all make you more aware of the risks and help you speak more knowledgeable on the topic, but when the drug is laying there on that inclined slope in front of you how many will traverse the other way. I will, sometimes.
PS Don't forget about tree wells either.
Taking classes, reading, training all make you more aware of the risks and help you speak more knowledgeable on the topic, but when the drug is laying there on that inclined slope in front of you how many will traverse the other way. I will, sometimes.
PS Don't forget about tree wells either.
