Internal cues for improper alignment

[Erik Timmerman]

OK, I asked about Visual Cues before. How about internal cues? What do you feel when you are out of alignment? I haven't had a chance to do any slow drills or get video yet, so as I've been working on dialing in my new boots I've relied on what I feel and worked from there.

First cue, felt off balance to the rear. Often this is just asking for a toe lift, but I've skied skis with bindings that had too much gas pedal and this is what it felt like. Like I was in balance as long as I was really driving into the cuffs. My instincts told me to lift the heels, so I did by 2mm. Feels much bette now. Might take it a little farther.

Second cue, turns felt good, but I could feel my knees brush together somewhere around the transition. I decided to can't both boots about 1/2 degree on the inside (3 strips of gorilla tape under the lifters). Feels like problem solved.

Third cue, sore butt muscle on right side, also inside ankle of right foot feels like it is driving into the shell of the boot. Possible solution, changed cuff alignment to the outside. Hypothesis is that the cuff is out of alignment and keeps pushing my leg inside. When I tip my leg out, I can feel that the sore muscle is the one that does it. Haven't skied this yet, so who knows, I may be wrong.

 

[KevinF]

My original Lange RS's (before I discovered PJ...) had a heel lift in them (to compensate for ankle flexion), but that had the effect of moving my weight too far back -- i.e., the inverse of a toe lift. I didn't notice it much on groomers, but trying to ski a bump run? Every time I went over a bump I'd have to do a massive recenter move to get my tips to drop. It took me far too long to realize that it wasn't me, it was the boots. Current boot setup doesn't have a heel lift or a toe lift. I feel like I ski better with Attack bindings then Griffon bindings, and Attack's are flatter. I want to try a toe lift shim this winter to see how it feels.

As for lateral alignment... I'm naturally bowlegged, so if my alignment is off laterally, I feel the new inside ski hook up long before the outside ski does.

 

[razie]

I would say to ignore internal cues and take video.

At the beginning of last season, I felt like a better Marcel H, with perfect technique and alignment, until taking video...

 

[BornToSki683]

I'm with Razie. Get some video. I will just say this... It can be very deceiving about what causes the knees to knock together. In certain situations, a bow legged skier will end up with A frame! This happens because of the compensations they make. The only thing I feel comfortable self-evaluating without video, and video would be better, is doing one legged simple drills and paying close attention to what happens. Might be able to draw some conclusions, but truthfully, a lot of unconscious corrective measures happen even in those situations, particularly by a decent skier who can compensate in all manner of ways. Until you see it on video you might not even realize you're doing some of those things. So the more simple the drill you do to self-assess, the better. At the end of the day I feel that paying attention to how easily or hard each ski releases through flat on the snow, both in normal parallel turns...and with slow white pass turns...seems to help me get to the middle, but honestly I need to get some video eval also....

 

[Doby Man]

Ignore internal cues? We must have different definitions for the term. For me, anyway, internal cues are specific identifiers of what we feel (proprioceptively) when we are skiing. This is what we need to make real time decisions and adjustments. I can't even imagine how one learns to ski without them. Whether video or even if we are watching ourselves in real time such as in a mirror, internal cues would be the connection between what we see and making corrections. The development of internal cues may represent learning to ski more than anything else I can think of. When a skier's developmental components of visual imagery becomes more important or developed than identifying, categorizing and managing what is actually felt, this is one way to get stuck in a plateau.

Edit: I am guessing Razie is just making the point about the value of video, something bts articulates nicely with which I wholly agree and especially in terms of the movements that we think we have correct. That is a sign that your internal cues are false and why developing more accurate internal cues is so important. Figuring out why your internal cues may be false or incorrect would be a good start.

 

[razie]

Yeah - it was specifically about alignment this time - I don't think they are that useful regarding alignment, for most of us ... although I still prefer to focus more on external cues for instruction and improvement. Internal cues are important, but they won't really drive improvement on their own... they're more like giving the brain something to chew on, while we get on with the business... at hand, or rather... under foot.

And yes, they are often wrong and could lead us in the wrong direction - we need a good coach / video / external cues to make sure we're in the right direction anyways. I find myself acquire what I feel to be the proper internal cues for this or that, only to start relying on them too much and after a while find myself again far from where I was convinced I was.

mark the spot makes the connection to the proper internal cues - that's an important coaching uhh thing - my tennis coach is great with that. I see it's not properly explained by google - it's when the coach observes a good performance of a task and gets loud about it, to mark the spot, give instant feedback.

p.s. I also tend to be careful not to confuse internal cues with internal focus of attention. They are related, but different.

 

[RuleMiHa]

When my fore/aft is way off back my tails wash out and my skis make me their b**** and I wipe out on steeps and nothing I do positionwise changes this. When it is too forward my knees are killing me because my legs are bent double in some kind of freaky yoga pose as I try to sit on my heels. Good is somewhere in between, where neither of those things are happening.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It's hard enough to get any video. Doubly so when you only have WROD to ski on. I find more and more that I want to be able to explain what I feel and what that does for ski performance. I want to try to understand what others feel and what it does for them and how it relates to what I see. We are all different, for me a thread like the one running now about crossover/under has very little value and I always wonder how that can help anyone to ski better. Even a skiing robot made by Sony. Maybe I shouldn't admit that.

 

[David Chaus]

Here’s a few rudimentary things I look for.

Internal cue #1: lift one foot, then the then, either boots on a flat surface, or clicked in and keeping the ski level. If I’m able to do that without fighting for my balance, I’m good.

Internal cue #2: one footed drills; again if not needing to fight for balance, good to go.

Internal cue #3: when making turns, lift old outside ski/new inside ski, and note the ease or difficulty of having weight balanced over outside ski. I use the term “having” weight over outside ski rather than “moving” weight because if I’m aligned it should be a minimal process.

Internal cue #4: check to see how my lower back feels and check to see I’m not over flexing at the hips and back to compensate for poor ankle flexion, which could result from boot alignment issues.

 

[razie]

for me a thread like the one running now about crossover/under has very little value and I always wonder how that can help anyone to ski better.

nah, that's fair. for me, those type of discussions and exploration is deepening my understanding and clearing my mind (and focus & efforts) of useless things. The engineer in me requires this deep understanding of relationships and the more crystal clear my mental model is, the easier to focus my efforts and ignore the noise, with the noise-cancellation possibly the better feature.

As to alignment, from personal experience, the internal cues/feelings did not help much. I do not feel radically different with 1 more or less degree of canting, but the video shows the differences in behaviour and results. It's likely because we tend to subconciously compensate and, for instance lean away from a grabby ski or overdrive the outside knee of a flat ski etc which both fool our perception of the edge engagement for instance etc.

We can relate feelings of "need to plantar flex or push the pedal at the top of the turn" and some of these do have a meaning for me in terms of possible flaws, but many things are possible, it's not easy for me to isolate a single cause, especially for skiers I don't know and especially since, again from video, I know that what I feel myself is very deceiving. And I found this to be doubly so as I evolve, and feelings change. What was a safe feeling once disappears and so on. In fact, it is good now to be (focusing) on my heels more, quite the opposite of the other thing.

The other issue is that if the skier never had great alignment, won't tell the difference. For him/her, what they feel is normal - the left skis feels grabbier, sure. Which one's bad? Is that one too aggressive or the other one too soft? Is it the cuff or the sole?

This is why, while I do still work with internal cues to some extent, more as internal focus of attention for movements for instance, I do not focus that much on them in terms of feedback. I leave most of that to the subconcious, i.e. educating the proprioception and such. If we focus on the inputs (what we actually do) and results (external cues) the rest is just the stuff in the middle. Very few internal cues I find actually useful these days, like "get off the cuffs at so and so time" or "too late, relax" are some I can remember. But even these may be temporary and will be replaced soon by others, likely even fewer.

Bottom line, internal cues will always be individual, related to our current level of understanding and ability and technique and hopefully temporary.

Having said that, back to alignment, there are indeed conditions, like ice, where differences in alignment can be felt and I do feel some of those, when focusing, especially as I have several boots, some canted some not, different cuffs and setups and I can compare - it would usually be around timing of edge grab and some fore/aft feel etc. But I can't necessarily relate that to what others may feel and again, perhaps I just got used to it by coaching others, I tend to focus on analyzing what I see not trying to dissect words and feelings.

At the higher end of the sport, things are somewhat different but even there, it takes a relationship and a lot of work and testing to have the athlete relate back useful feelings...

 

[Erik Timmerman]

As to alignment, from personal experience, the internal cues/feelings did not help much. I do not feel radically different with 1 more or less degree of canting, but the video shows the differences in behaviour and results. It's likely because we tend to subconciously compensate and, for instance lean away from a grabby ski or overdrive the outside knee of a flat ski etc which both fool our perception of the edge engagement for instance etc.

Some experience comes into play too, doesn't it. If I feel myself dropping one hand over and over, I know in the past when I have been undercounted on the other side, that happens. I always want my students to learn to self-coach so they can learn to stop making the same mistakes over and over and they shouldn't have to have me following them round telling them what to do. I'd have liked to have been skiing with Dave Merriam on Thursday, but I wasn't. I stopped half way down a run and considered the turns I had just done and my mind said "If Dave was here he'd tell me to widen my stance". I'd like my students to do the same. Next week our terrain will expand and hopefully I can get video. It will be interesting to see if things look how they feel.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Epic, I am with you. At a certain stage of development your internal cues are the most important ones. You understand yourself well enough to know what the issue is and to what extent you should address it. I know i lean to the left (ironic!!!) with both legs. But trying to correct it causes me more issues than living with it - 50 years of muscle memory lets you adapt pretty well. It is like intuition - people often confuse it as "gut instinct" but in reality it is formed from extensive experience, whether consciously or not...

Go with your intuition here....

 

[razie]

"If Dave was here he'd tell me to widen my stance". I'd like my students to do the same.

You're making my point for me... stance width is not an internal cue, unless the boots are, I guess, touching. You're looking at it, most likely. Or are aware of it, gauging it from the ski tip distance, but there's no sensor for that, is there? Of course we want the students to self coach and external cues are best for that: look down in transition: boots 5mm apart? Too wide !!! Err too narrow!!!

And there's stuff like dropping the hand, where, well, it's a body part, so it's all going to be internal. Unless you looked at it.

For sure there are quite a few internal cues we can associate to this or that good skiing, like hips level etc. But are my hips level? How do I know, without looking? I could guess, but video could prove me wrong... Do I do the effort of lifting my inside hip? Yeah. Enough? Kind'a. Then it's not too bad. There is some internal focus and internal cues, sure. Are there external cues? Well, if I looked, than I'd know, right? If I put the poles under my butt, I'd know, right? If I held my hands on my hips, I'd know, right?



Anyways, that's my poison of choice. Now back to drilling plates... do I use a 3.5x7 or a 4.1x9? I forgot...

 

[Jamt]

How about internal cues? What do you feel when you are out of alignment? I haven't had a chance to do any slow drills or get video yet, so as I've been working on dialing in my new boots I've relied on what I feel and worked from there.

First cue, felt off balance to the rear. Often this is just asking for a toe lift, but I've skied skis with bindings that had too much gas pedal and this is what it felt like. Like I was in balance as long as I was really driving into the cuffs. My instincts told me to lift the heels, so I did by 2mm. Feels much bette now. Might take it a little farther.

Second cue, turns felt good, but I could feel my knees brush together somewhere around the transition. I decided to can't both boots about 1/2 degree on the inside (3 strips of gorilla tape under the lifters). Feels like problem solved.

Third cue, sore butt muscle on right side, also inside ankle of right foot feels like it is driving into the shell of the boot. Possible solution, changed cuff alignment to the outside. Hypothesis is that the cuff is out of alignment and keeps pushing my leg inside. When I tip my leg out, I can feel that the sore muscle is the one that does it. Haven't skied this yet, so who knows, I may be wrong.

Lateral alignment. If the ski chatters on hard snow the boots are too aggressive/over canted. If you feel that you have to angulate (hip or pushing knee to inside) too much compared what would normally be needed you need more canting.
Regarding the cuff alignment. Most of the time they should be centered around your lower leg when you stand with your base position on a hard floor.

fore-aft. This is probably quite individual, but I know that I get sore calves if I have to much cuff forward. I do think it is worth experimenting. These small differences can be hard to notice when you watch a skier, but it can feel more balanced, like in your case.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

You're making my point for me... stance width is not an internal cue, unless the boots are, I guess, touching.

Actually... what I felt was rotation of my hips in the short turns and hands starting to swing back little. That's enough for me to know (now) that my stance needs to open so my femurs can rotate better.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Lateral alignment. If the ski chatters on hard snow the boots are too aggressive/over canted.

Yep. Good one for sure.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Doing very slow open parallel turns, I felt like I was getting stuck as my skis were pointing downhill. Experimented with shims under binding and put spoilers back in boots. No more "stuck".

 

[razie]

Actually... what I felt was rotation of my hips in the short turns and hands starting to swing back little. That's enough for me to know (now) that my stance needs to open so my femurs can rotate better.

Ah - and it also depends a lot on our various focus on biomechanics and technique, as you detected something else and based on your model, deduced the change to make - and this is one I did not understand, but would like to - it was never explained to me properly I guess, i.e. testing just now, my femurs seem to rotate equally well with the feet 2 inches apart and 5 inches apart. How wide is good for you and how narrow would be too narrow? Is this based on the hip height in transition?

So it can loop back to technique I won't take it there - just looking to understand this relationship.

thanks

 

[Tony S]

Second cue, turns felt good, but I could feel my knees brush together somewhere around the transition. I decided to can't both boots about 1/2 degree on the inside (3 strips of gorilla tape under the lifters). Feels like problem solved.

Amateur hour: How did you get from symptom to solution here? I tend to be a little inside edge heavy / knock-kneed, which gets wound into some other minor issues / symptoms, including occasional knee brushing. Seems like in my case putting tape under the lifters on the inside would make me even MORE inside heavy. No?

 

[razie]

Seems like in my case putting tape under the lifters on the inside would make me even MORE inside heavy. No?

Your ski would be edged more for the same knee movement, or seen the other way, on the same amount of inside edge with less knee drive, so less knee brushing. But it could also be physiological or technique or other equipment problem (i.e. are you driving the knee to fight a cuff that's too straight or are you not tipping the inside ski) and to diagnose properly you'd need video, to see which one is - knees can touch for many reasons... including a stance too narrow