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agent00F

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Sorry if I didn't read every comment, but there's a distinction in this thread between advanced technique and advance terrain, and I think a question which might help answer this is whether Bumps For Boomers is considered "advanced". I'm not a boomer, but I do use "standing on the uphill ski and drift down" for extreme speed control in tricky steepish terrain including moguls, and in theory it should work in just about anything. It really does work well for what it's designed to do, providing anywhere from ~zero up to max edge friction with decent direct control for a potentially very graceful glide, basically the polar opposite of carving.

So on the one hand, it's clearly not how expert/pro skiers come down black runs or such, with zero separation and zero angles. OTOH, it allows even the geriatric to come down black even some double black runs, even in slippery conditions as safely (read: slowly, but hardly stop and go) as possible with little wear/tear. But the question is, how far down from top of advanced is it simply because it's last one down the hill?
 

Josh Matta

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they dont really stand on the uphill(inside) ski, they do talk alot about using the inside ski to smear but trust me standing on the inside ski even on flat ski would spell trouble, and they dont ask people to do that.

speed has nothing to do with ones off piste ability level. In fac those that can crawl(but might choose to go faster) typically have much more refined and precise skills .
 

mister moose

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Here's a few differentiations I don't remember being discussed here.

INTERMEDIATE Able to move partially onto outside ski
ADVANCED...… Able to move completely onto outside ski


INTERMEDIATE Able to edge to complete a turn
ADVANCED...… Able to edge at the beginning of a turn


INTERMEDIATE Able to balance on either single foot
ADVANCED...… Able to turn on either single foot.


INTERMEDIATE Evaluate in a second, and correct in second
ADVANCED...… Evaluate in a millisecond, and correct in a millisecond


INTERMEDIATE Looks ahead 1 turn
ADVANCED...… Looks ahead several turns


INTERMEDIATE makes large corrections
ADVANCED...… makes numerous linked small corrections


INTERMEDIATE Steers skis on snow to enter next turn
ADVANCED...... Places skis on snow in desired direction


INTERMEDIATE Moves COM to inside of turn
ADVANCED...... Moves COM in advance to where it needs to be


INTERMEDIATE Skis body position
ADVANCED...... Skis pressure management


INTERMEDIATE Can manipulate
ADVANCED....... Can feather

INTERMEDIATE Thinks this is a complete list
ADVANCED....... Knows this isn't a complete list


 

LiquidFeet

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....a question which might help answer this is whether Bumps For Boomers is considered "advanced". I'm not a boomer, but I do use "standing on the uphill ski and drift down" for extreme speed control in tricky steepish terrain including moguls, and in theory it should work in just about anything. It really does work well for what it's designed to do, providing anywhere from ~zero up to max edge friction with decent direct control for a potentially very graceful glide, basically the polar opposite of carving....


Below is the Bumps-for-Boomers process for getting down bump runs, which I gleaned from extensive reading this last summer (I have not attended a camp):

--Separation is not required at Bumps-for-Boomers camps. I assume that's because the program doesn't have time to embed this movement pattern.
--For that reason skiers ski mostly square, choose one turn at a time, and take a slow, meandering line through the bumps.

--Skiers are taught to stand tall in a narrow stance as they ski (to get them forward), with shoulders held level with the hill.
--In the bumps, skiers are taught to start a turn from a slow traverse across the hill. This traverse produces the meandering line.
--As they traverse, skis are kept flat and slipping/drifting. The goal is to slow to a comfortable, secure-feeling crawl.
--To start a turn, skiers are taught to reach forward to make a forward pole plant.
--Then they are taught to stand tall on the uphill ski's little toe edge. This uphill leg extension flattens both skis.
--They are told to allow their sternum to move downhill (upper body crosses over the skis). Ending videos show intermittent success.
--Skiers slowly pivot the flattened skis down and around through the turn. Slight wedge entries may occur when the inside ski lags behind.
--All movements are to be done in slow motion.
--Final videos show skiers' upper bodies staying square to the skis as they come around.
--Some skiers in those videos use upper body rotation to strengthen the turn, but others allow upper bodies to simply follow the turning skis.
--Bumps-for-Boomers calls this turn the "Precision Drift."
--Clients successfully ski black bumps at Aspen.
 
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Coach13

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Sounds awful. This is hard, let’s not bother teaching it.

I know you should have had a ;) at the end of that post! If it wasn’t for folks like you making that attempt, guys like me wouldn’t have a chance to become better skiers.
 

LiquidFeet

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The issue that Bumps-for-Boomers brings up for me has to do with exactly what people are talking about here in this conversation. Is what the program teaches worthy of praise? I'm not certain this question is the right question to ask.

Here's a different way of approaching the same issue. How much fun, self-assurance, or other good type of feeling is gained by changing one's skiing from "intermediate" to "advanced"? It can take a ton of work to make that change. How much (fun? self-assurance? other?) is gained by being able to ski black bumps? If offered the choice, which option would most people choose to do? If you want to create a program that brings in people year after year, and gets tons of word-of-mouth support, and is easy to market, which would you offer at your mountain?

A one-week program focused on teaching intermediate non-bump skiers to get into the black bumps at Aspen with confidence can be successful at that terrain-based goal without having to drag clients through the difficult work and emotional drag involved in changing much of what's fundamental to their current skiing. Just sayin'.
 
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James

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^^Yes, and Aspen is covered with bumps. It opens up much more terrain on a relatively small mountain. Same with Highlands.

People seem to like the program. Bumpers will complain once again it's not bump skiing.
 

skier

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^^Bumpers will complain once again it's not bump skiing.

You've got it all backwards, James. Bumpers don't care how you ski. It's your buddies that are always turning up their nose at anything that's not carving. Bumpers just respond by saying, no, we don't have to ski the way you're telling us. We like our way better.
 
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Chris V.

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Below is the Bumps-for-Boomers process for getting down bump runs, which I gleaned from extensive reading this last summer (I have not attended a camp):

--Separation is not required at Bumps-for-Boomers camps.

Sounds to me a rough way to get through bumps. Different strokes for different folks.
 

agent00F

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they dont really stand on the uphill(inside) ski, they do talk alot about using the inside ski to smear but trust me standing on the inside ski even on flat ski would spell trouble, and they dont ask people to do that.

speed has nothing to do with ones off piste ability level. In fac those that can crawl(but might choose to go faster) typically have much more refined and precise skills .

I didn't attend their class, but the gist from the website is that they put weight on the uphill ski before it becomes the downhill ski so that there's minimal weight shift in the transition. It makes sense minimizing moves in the fall line transition reduces physical ability/effort required, but also helps allow a smooth drift to minimize time the skis point down. Your point about trouble when applied to any traditional technique is well noted, and I don't know exactly how they teach it, but it seemed to work when I tried it even if I don't 100% weigh the uphill (maybe ~70%) and felt easier to progress into than traditional mogul technique.

When looking at this stuff online, I found that John Clendenin the former freestyle champ teaches similar methods also marketed at seniors.

So if for the sake of argument we accept this is the one end of the range with race carving at the other end, with the stuff in between a mix of skid and carve, do you divide that graph into intermediate/advance vertically with the carve end considered advanced (because it's technically harder), or horizontally with proficiency at the method considered advanced (because become better at something is harder), or some mix of both?
 

François Pugh

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I didn't attend their class, but the gist from the website is that they put weight on the uphill ski before it becomes the downhill ski so that there's minimal weight shift in the transition. It makes sense minimizing moves in the fall line transition reduces physical ability/effort required, but also helps allow a smooth drift to minimize time the skis point down. Your point about trouble when applied to any traditional technique is well noted, and I don't know exactly how they teach it, but it seemed to work when I tried it even if I don't 100% weigh the uphill (maybe ~70%) and felt easier to progress into than traditional mogul technique.

When looking at this stuff online, I found that John Clendenin the former freestyle champ teaches similar methods also marketed at seniors.

So if for the sake of argument we accept this is the one end of the range with race carving at the other end, with the stuff in between a mix of skid and carve, do you divide that graph into intermediate/advance vertically with the carve end considered advanced (because it's technically harder), or horizontally with proficiency at the method considered advanced (because become better at something is harder), or some mix of both?
In the typical turn, the uphill ski becomes the outside ski (and needs to be weighted) before it becomes the downhill ski. Just say'n.
 

CalG

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The "Bumps for Boomers" aspect is not really anything related to the original topic.
Skiing more difficult or most difficult terrain does not make one an advanced skier if they are using skills not associated with advanced skiing.

New ideas on methods for negotiating difficult terrain may be regarded as an advancement....of a sort.
 

SSSdave

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This Intermediate vs Advanced Skiing thread has this non-instructor puzzled. I tersely suggested on page 1 of the thread that the key difference between the two levels is lower from upper body separation while facing down fall lines. The thread is now on page 10 with instructor members here explaining a long list of body mechanic issues but not mentioning separation though I'll admit to paying little attention after my initial input.

The majority of skiers on resort slopes are not advanced. Last week while skiing Tahoe resorts 3 days while pondering about the thread, I paid some attention to those skiing down groomed intermediate slopes and the majority did not show independent separation while skiing. I don't need to describe what that looks like herein as instructors obviously are aware of that. Advanced skiers on the other hand were instantly obvious especially on steeper slopes as they readily make most of their turns with separation while generally facing down fall lines.

Several years ago on epicski vaguely recall a thread where I had in some way wondered why independent upper versus lower body separation while facing down fall lines was not taught to beginners. One instructor admitted he sometimes taught novices to ski with separation though it was not something approved. I quickly self taught myself to ski like that after reading Jobert's fat book because that is how I saw not only other advanced skiers ski on resort slopes but also all racers on tv. And later taught a very athletic beginner friend to ski so likewise from day one after some basics of parallel turns, mainly simply by copying my form skiing behind me down groomed green slopes.

So as someone with little understanding of the instructor world or their methods, am wondering why? Maybe some instructors do teach athletic students such and I simply am not aware of that. Or maybe some of the posts were describing such though with terms and body mechanics over my head? It has me suspecting that such is not taught because of an expectation that most novices would not be able to perform so as though it is too difficult? And I wonder if such is somewhat responsible for many intermediates being stuck at those levels because once bad habits form they are difficult to unlearn?
 
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markojp

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You've got it all backwards, James. Bumpers don't care how you ski. It's your buddies that are always turning up their nose at anything that's not carving. Bumpers just respond by saying, no, we don't have to ski the way you're telling us. We like our way better.

skier, would you politely knock it off? Most 'buddies' here advocate versatility. This 'me against the world' combative schtick is tedious. I doubt it's the person you are in 1:1. Several here have actually skied together and shared beers. It'd be cool if you wrote in a manner that supported that ethos, imagining for a moment that we might actually ski together, enjoy a great day on the hill, and a beverage or meal later. It's the thing that makes this place tick. And for what it's worth after being repeated for the umteenth time, I could give a rodent's rear how anyone here skis unless asked or paid to do so.

:beercheer:
 
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agent00F

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In the typical turn, the uphill ski becomes the outside ski (and needs to be weighted) before it becomes the downhill ski. Just say'n.

Sure, I was simply describing where bumps for boomers differs from orthodox technique, in that the skier starts standing on (and feathering) the uphill ski for friction control before the turn starts, and when it's mostly ended start standing on the new uphill ski. That way any transition occurs away from the fall line where it's most difficult to make active movements.

The "Bumps for Boomers" aspect is not really anything related to the original topic.
Skiing more difficult or most difficult terrain does not make one an advanced skier if they are using skills not associated with advanced skiing.

New ideas on methods for negotiating difficult terrain may be regarded as an advancement....of a sort.

How is coming down double blacks safely, efficiently, even effortlessly necessarily not advanced skiing? It can certainly be argued that someone who's terribly good at this skid/drift technique like myself isn't advanced, but much harder to argue John Clendenin gracefully gliding down the iciest steepest bumps isn't, even if it doesn't look like he's doing much.
 
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