Intermediate vs Advanced Skiing

[jack97]

skier, would you politely knock it off? Most 'buddies' here advocate versatility. This 'me against the world' combative schtick is tedious.

I agree but this was a response from a reply that was equally as combative. Both sides should knock it off.

 

[skier]

skier, would you politely knock it off? Most 'buddies' here advocate versatility. This 'me against the world' combative schtick is tedious. I doubt it's the person you are in 1:1. Several here have actually skied together and shared beers. It'd be cool if you wrote in a manner that supported that ethos, imagining for a moment that we might actually ski together, enjoy a great day on the hill, and a beverage or meal later. It's the thing that makes this place tick. And for what it's worth after being repeated for the umteenth time, I could give a rodent's rear how anyone here skis unless asked or paid to do so.

Jack nailed it. Why can't you see that? Why would you only look at one side responding, but not the other side instigating? You are combative. When called out on it, you're all about toasting with beers. Now your schtick is that we're all friends, but that doesn't match your writing either, except in regards to people you agree with most of the time.

 

[Steve]

I didn't see @skier being hostile, to me he was playfully puffing out his chest a little, but I read it as "I do what I want." What's wrong with that?

 

[skier]

This Intermediate vs Advanced Skiing thread has this non-instructor puzzled. I tersely suggested on page 1 of the thread that the key difference between the two levels is lower from upper body separation while facing down fall lines. The thread is now on page 10 with instructor members here explaining a long list of body mechanic issues but not mentioning separation though I'll admit to paying little attention after my initial input.

The majority of skiers on resort slopes are not advanced. Last week while skiing Tahoe resorts 3 days while pondering about the thread, I paid some attention to those skiing down groomed intermediate slopes and the majority did not show independent separation while skiing. I don't need to describe what that looks like herein as instructors obviously are aware of that. Advanced skiers on the other hand were instantly obvious especially on steeper slopes as they readily make most of their turns with separation while generally facing down fall lines.

Several years ago on epicski vaguely recall a thread where I had in some way wondered why independent upper versus lower body separation while facing down fall lines was not taught to beginners. One instructor admitted he sometimes taught novices to ski with separation though it was not something approved. I quickly self taught myself to ski like that after reading Jobert's fat book because that is how I saw not only other advanced skiers ski on resort slopes but also all racers on tv. And later taught a very athletic beginner friend to ski so likewise from day one after some basics of parallel turns, mainly simply by copying my form skiing behind me down groomed green slopes.

So as someone with little understanding of the instructor world or their methods, am wondering why? Maybe some instructors do teach athletic students such and I simply am not aware of that. Or maybe some of the posts were describing such though with terms and body mechanics over my head? It has me suspecting that such is not taught because of an expectation that most novices would not be able to perform so as though it is too difficult? And I wonder if such is somewhat responsible for many intermediates being stuck at those levels because once bad habits form they are difficult to unlearn?

Separation was one of my main factors also. I think this ends up being a perspective of people spending lots of time in the bumps turning quickly. I learned it out of necessity. I wanted to make that next turn coming up super quick, and separation is the only way. No one told me to do it, it just had to happen. I've noticed that there are a number of styles that don't focus as much on separation, and I think it's because they aren't trying to make quick turns.

 

[JESinstr]

This Intermediate vs Advanced Skiing thread has this non-instructor puzzled. I tersely suggested on page 1 of the thread that the key difference between the two levels is lower from upper body separation while facing down fall lines. The thread is now on page 10 with instructor members here explaining a long list of body mechanic issues but not mentioning separation though I'll admit to paying little attention after my initial input.

The majority of skiers on resort slopes are not advanced. Last week while skiing Tahoe resorts 3 days while pondering about the thread, I paid some attention to those skiing down groomed intermediate slopes and the majority did not show independent separation while skiing. I don't need to describe what that looks like herein as instructors obviously are aware of that. Advanced skiers on the other hand were instantly obvious especially on steeper slopes as they readily make most of their turns with separation while generally facing down fall lines.

Several years ago on epicski vaguely recall a thread where I had in some way wondered why independent upper versus lower body separation while facing down fall lines was not taught to beginners. One instructor admitted he sometimes taught novices to ski with separation though it was not something approved. I quickly self taught myself to ski like that after reading Jobert's fat book because that is how I saw not only other advanced skiers ski on resort slopes but also all racers on tv. And later taught a very athletic beginner friend to ski so likewise from day one after some basics of parallel turns, mainly simply by copying my form skiing behind me down groomed green slopes.

So as someone with little understanding of the instructor world or their methods, am wondering why? Maybe some instructors do teach athletic students such and I simply am not aware of that. Or maybe some of the posts were describing such though with terms and body mechanics over my head? It has me suspecting that such is not taught because of an expectation that most novices would not be able to perform so as though it is too difficult? And I wonder if such is somewhat responsible for many intermediates being stuck at those levels because once bad habits form they are difficult to unlearn?

Separation was one of my main factors also. I think this ends up being a perspective of people spending lots of time in the bumps turning quickly. I learned it out of necessity. I wanted to make that next turn coming up super quick, and separation is the only way. No one told me to do it, it just had to happen. I've noticed that there are a number of styles that don't focus as much on separation, and I think it's because they aren't trying to make quick turns.

Why do you both have such a narrow view of separation? Skeletal separation between the upper and lower body is indeed a key differentiator between the intermediate and the advanced skier. But don't pigeon hole it into just rotary based skills. The ability to separate lower body skeletal joints is also key to the creation of angles (angulation) which is critical to the carving process. Just as I see many intermediates using upper body mass in the pursuit of ski redirection, I also see many intermediates inclinating said mass as their inferior way to achieve higher edge angles.

Finally, and this is a pet peeve of mine, please don't tell someone that good/advanced skiing requires you to face down the fall line. The upper body faces relative direction of travel which is dictated by the radius of the turn assuming a turn is the intent.

 

[markojp]

Jack nailed it. Why can't you see that? Why would you only look at one side responding, but not the other side instigating? You are combative. When called out on it, you're all about toasting with beers. Now your schtick is that we're all friends, but that doesn't match your writing either, except in regards to people you agree with most of the time.

See, the deal is there's history here that you're unaware of. Some of it goes back to Epic ski. Over time, it's much easier to read people. As specific to you, I think we often talk past each other and spiral down the path of absolutes and false conclusions about what the other thinks. As I said to you in another thread that's now closed, we've all had our disagreements (right Josh and Razie? ) Phil and crew have done a great job moderating and have established a much better tone than most forums. But at a certain point, it's not really worth putting thoughts out in a public forum.

Many here are deeply involved in the industry and are aware that what is posted might affect jobs, etc. Personally, I feel strongly that collegial discussion is much more useful than making and burning strawmen. Skier, I'd happily meet you (or anyone here) on the hill for turns. What we all have in common far outweighs our first world problem differences. I'll bow out here for awhile. The best to you, Skier. There's a place at the table for all, but the meal is better when eaten, not thrown.

 

[Wilhelmson]

How is coming down double blacks safely, efficiently, even effortlessly necessarily not advanced skiing? It can certainly be argued that someone who's terribly good at this skid/drift technique like myself isn't advanced, but much harder to argue John Clendenin gracefully gliding down the iciest steepest bumps isn't, even if it doesn't look like he's doing much

One must break the chains in order to understand the shadows on the wall are merely reflections of truth.

Without being too facetious, it's obviously something the expert intermediate can't understand. While we must occasionally employ some of the requisite expert conventions such as the hallowed separation in order to efficiently get our buts down the hill, it by no means would translate to efficient or safe travel on true expert terrain such the Big Coloir!

 

[Johnny V.]

There's a place at the table for all, but the meal is better when eaten, not thrown.

Yes, as a long time Epic member and a member here since the beginning, I hate to see these discussions evolve into "who can get in the last word". Pugski has been pretty free of that trend so far, but I've seen it pop up in a few threads. Sometimes it's better to just "shut up and ski".

 

[skier]

Why do you both have such a narrow view of separation? Skeletal separation between the upper and lower body is indeed a key differentiator between the intermediate and the advanced skier. But don't pigeon hole it into just rotary based skills. The ability to separate lower body skeletal joints is also key to the creation of angles (angulation) which is critical to the carving process. Just as I see many intermediates using upper body mass in the pursuit of ski redirection, I also see many intermediates inclinating said mass as their inferior way to achieve higher edge angles.

Finally, and this is a pet peeve of mine, please don't tell someone that good/advanced skiing requires you to face down the fall line. The upper body faces relative direction of travel which is dictated by the radius of the turn assuming a turn is the intent.

Markojp, see how combative Jesinstr's post is? Maybe people can't see that? If JESinstr's post is the kind of fun talk on the hill to be had while skiing or hanging out in a bar, then count me out of your ethos. I never talk to friends that way.

My post was very modest. Separation is necessary for quick turns. Some people don't worry about separation much, because they don't do quick turns. How is that a narrow view? It's absolutely 100% true. In regards to advanced or intermediate skiing, if you read my posts, my main focus was that there are two paths people go down. One path is initiating turns with the upper body, and the other path is initiating turns without the upper body. I consider initiating turns with the upper body to be an intermediate technique, though I also commented about how these intermediate skiers can take their techniques to most marked trails in the country, so it's not that important in many regards.

Separation comes into this, because when an intermediate skier initiates their turns with the upper body, it's almost impossible for them to achieve the separation necessary for a stable upper body for quick turns. When does initiating with the upper body cause problems for non-judged situations? First of all, it causes problems with carving, but carving is often not necessary to get down a trail comfortably. The only time I see carving as necessary is when the snow is heavy and more than a few inches, such that the ski can't skid. I see intermediates, that initiate with the upper body, struggle in these conditions, but I've also seen these same skiers get on fat skis with rocker and shine once again. So, technology has narrowed the range where those techniques are ineffective. Next, these intermediate skiers that initiate turns with the upper body, can't make quick turns with stability in the bumps, though typically all they have to do is skip some turns. Any other times initiating with the upper body doesn't work on typical marked trails? I tend to focus on limitations for quick turns, because quick turns in the bumps are what I enjoy doing.

 

[Mendieta]

We are going to need to lock this thread to avoid more relationships being damaged. Thank you, @markojp and @Johnny V. for trying.

He said, she said, whatever.

Best thing that happened to me last Saturday in Mt Rose was not the skiing, was a big hug from @Bobalooski as I saw him after a long time. Unless I am missing something, most of us are a little old and out of shape to compete in the Olympics. We are here for fun. And to share the fun with our family and friends. Make new ski buddies. What else do we need? What else should the Ski School be facilitating?

Let's please all take a deep breath, go out, and ski with a big smile.