Intermediate in race boots?

[nesneros]

@nesneros, ask your bootfitter to describe the difference between custom made footbeds and custom made orthotics. Ask why you are being steered towards orthotics instead of custom-made footbeds. In my world, orthotics are hard and inflexible, while custom made footbeds are somewhat flexible. Some feet need the orthotics, while other skiers need footbeds and definitely should not have orthotics. There is no reliable and verifiable research confirming which skiers need which. The philosophical approach of the bootfitter will determine what he/she suggests to a skier.

Orthotics (in my world, here in New England) begin with a cast made of the foot using plaster gauze. The bootfitter forms the cast around the skier's foot, while the skier is in the shop. That cast is used to make a plaster mold of the foot. That cast is sent out to someone elsewhere to make a supportive "orthotic" that matches the foot. It will be rigid, and thus will keep the foot from collapsing.

Custom made footbeds, on the other hand, start in the shop with your foot being pressed down onto a responsive surface that will conform to the bottom of the foot. You sit and press your foot onto a plate that holds a soft, responsive surface. The bootfitter takes that plate with the shape of each foot down to his boot-fitter-cave and makes the actual footbeds using some kind of bootfitter magic. You sit around waiting. After a while the bootfitter brings back your boots with the footbeds in them. You try them on to check the feel. That day you will leave the shop with footbeds inside your boots. If you decid to get orthotics instead, you will have to wait for the orthotics for a week or so while they are being formed elsewhere and mailed back.

These processes may differ bootfitter to bootfitter. The big difference in the final products is that the orthotics are rigid, while the footbeds are somewhat flexible. The amount of give footbeds have can be manipulated by the bootfitter in the shop. There is no "give" in orthotics.

I've used both. The reason I was eventually sold orthotics had to do with the excessive hypermobility of my feet, along with problematic dysfunctions resulting from that mobility.

Maybe others here will tell you about their experiences.

Hence “liquidfeet”, I presume.

This is probably my fault, I’ve been using the terms interchangeably, but by your definition this is definitely a custom footbed. He took the mold but is working on them while we wait for their fall shipment of boots. The process of taking the initial impression was identical to the forming of my Sidas custom winter pros, so I was curious to know what the difference is. I guess I will find out.

I’ve also had a few plaster cast orthotics, but it has been probably twenty years since the last ones when I was a teen. I thought perhaps the tech had evolved with these new thermoplastics.

 

[James]

The materials for most ski footbeds are all mostly the same. Sure there’s a 160 page catalog of materials, but they’re likely to use half a page. You can use different hardnesses of the same material.
They’re also all “hand built” except for Surefoot which is cnc cut, and some new ones which are 3-d printed.

I’ve had at least a dozen, maybe 18, footbeds over the years. Some have been terrible, some very good. It kind of comes down to who’s making it. One of the best I’ve had was €100.

How long do they last? Well, some say with changes in your feet over time, the number of days skiing is a moot point. They give it 3 years life span. Probably your $300 guy will say 5 years. Ask.

You should be aware that there is a fairly large group of high level skiers who don’t use them. There's also a guy who’s written extensively about boots and went through footbeds in the late 70’s thinking they were the answer. He pretty much thinks the opposite now.

You will hear how footbeds will basically solve everything, and make you smarter and better looking. Some employ parlor tricks to show you how better balanced you are.

Sounds like you’ve got a good shop. If money isn’t a big objection. You can do two things. Go with the $300 footbeds right away, or go 50-60$ Microwave ones and experiment later.

 

[nesneros]

The materials for most ski footbeds are all mostly the same. Sure there’s a 160 page catalog of materials, but they’re likely to use half a page. You can use different hardnesses of the same material.
They’re also all “hand built” except for Surefoot which is cnc cut, and some new ones which are 3-d printed.

I’ve had at least a dozen, maybe 18, footbeds over the years. Some have been terrible, some very good. It kind of comes down to who’s making it. One of the best I’ve had was €100.

How long do they last? Well, some say with changes in your feet over time, the number of days skiing is a moot point. They give it 3 years life span. Probably your $300 guy will say 5 years. Ask.

You should be aware that there is a fairly large group of high level skiers who don’t use them. There's also a guy who’s written extensively about boots and went through footbeds in the late 70’s thinking they were the answer. He pretty much thinks the opposite now.

You will hear how footbeds will basically solve everything, and make you smarter and better looking. Some employ parlor tricks to show you how better balanced you are.

Sounds like you’ve got a good shop. If money isn’t a big objection. You can do two things. Go with the $300 footbeds right away, or go 50-60$ Microwave ones and experiment later.

I really hope they’ll make me better looking and smarter. I’d settle for just one

I mean “hand built” in the sense that it doesn’t come out of the package fully assembled and ready to heat mold. My $150 Sidas ones were like that, have four layers ready built in the most common useful configuration and just heat molded in the shop. If the Sidas are that much, $300 for a custom assembly seems fair.

This guy took some sheets of blue plastic and heat molded them to my feet while I was in the shop, and I guess will add the layers of cushion and various support shapes manually to get them to sit flat. I do know he tops them with merino wool. They should be ready when I go in for the boots and will compare.

The advice one finds around feet is kind of interesting. For example, some swear that one should exercise in bare feet to strengthen the foot. Others think one should find a particular shoe with good support.

For me, my feet are bad enough that they affect the alignment of my leg bones (knock kneed), and I’ll really do anything to try to improve my alignment, weight distribution, etc and avoid injury. My mother is in her sixties, has bad knees, osteoarthritis and can barely walk, so anything I can do to stave that off as long as possible would be welcome. Maybe the foot beds will help, or maybe they won’t do anything but provide peace of mind that I’ve done what I can.

 

[EricG]

You will hear how footbeds will basically solve everything, and make you smarter and better looking. Some employ parlor tricks to show you how better balanced you are.

I’m afraid my old red footbeds are going to clash with my new green boots. Will this have an impact in the better looks phenomenon you describe?

 

[KingGrump]

For me, my feet are bad enough that they affect the alignment of my leg bones (knock kneed), and I’ll really do anything to try to improve my alignment, weight distribution, etc and avoid injury. My mother is in her sixties, has bad knees, osteoarthritis and can barely walk, so anything I can do to stave that off as long as possible would be welcome. Maybe the foot beds will help, or maybe they won’t do anything but provide peace of mind that I’ve done what I can.

If you are that concerned with your long term mobility and skiing. Learn how to ski softly will help greatly.

 

[Pequenita]

I noticed the OP mentioning at least twice a concern that better fitting, potentially race boots will be too responsive. Flex is a different issue, but you want responsiveness. I don’t see why you wouldn’t want control. And you’re getting 40 days a season in Utah. For some people that’s 3 or 4 seasons’ worth of days.

 

[nesneros]

I noticed the OP mentioning at least twice a concern that better fitting, potentially race boots will be too responsive. Flex is a different issue, but you want responsiveness. I don’t see why you wouldn’t want control. And you’re getting 40 days a season in Utah. For some people that’s 3 or 4 seasons’ worth of days.

In regards to responsiveness and flex, there were two things. I’ve been told that if a boot is too responsive for a beginner, it can hinder your progression. A boot that is a bit slower to respond is apparently also more forgiving to mistakes and won’t send you flying if you twitch wrong.

The other thing is I was thinking about a race boot in terms of being optimized for on-piste, I don’t want a boot that is focused on carving and will prevent me from or fight me when going out in the powder.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

In regards to responsiveness and flex, there were two things. I’ve been told that if a boot is too responsive for a beginner, it can hinder your progression. A boot that is a bit slower to respond is apparently also more forgiving to mistakes and won’t send you flying if you twitch wrong.

I disagree with that theory. Skiing is a sport about subtlety. If your subtle movements are absorbed by ill-fitting boots, you have to make gross movements. Eventually you are gonna have to stop doing that. Might as well do it now. It'll feel like a whole new sport the first time out, but a better sport.

 

[Philpug]

The Fischer RC4 Podium GT is not a true race boot but a low volume very efficient boot. Without seeing your feet, it is really difficult to say of it is the right option but lets assume that it is. As mentioned, it is not an abducted boot either, Fischer has evolved away from that design over the years. @nesneros, you mentioned that you didn't ahve you old footbeds with you and that you might want to keep them for your old boots. if these are only two years old, and if they were molded correctly and well, they should be able to be used in these, I would still say they are a consideration. You also mentioned issues like riding your inside edges, did you mention this to the fitter and if so, did he take a look at your alignment? With this boot, some of that can be corrected in the mold process but you still might need some external canting.

 

[Wilhelmson]

$1,200 worth of lessons will go farther than $1,200 of boots.

 

[Philpug]

$1,200 worth of lessons will go farther than $1,200 of boots.

$600 in boots and $600 in lessons will go farther than $1,200 in lessons...especially if is current boots are doing it and it sounds like they aren't.

 

[Average Joe]

$1,200 worth of lessons will go farther than $1,200 of boots.

$250 of shop work can save many seasons and $2,500 of coaching trying to correct movements caused by incorrect alignment.

 

[KingGrump]

It will take way more than $250 to make a 26 boot to work properly with a 25 foot. Much easier to start with a 25 boot that fits properly.

$300 for a foot bed does seem a bit high. But hey, they got to make a buck too. Ask them why so expensive and if there are slightly lower cost products that are comparable.

A 130 flex does appear to be stiffer than necessary for an intermediate. A 110 will probably be a better match.
However, don't rule out the 130. The 130 will generally give a tighter and more responsive fit.
The only drawback for a stiffer flex is what I call "kickback." The skis' reaction to surface irregularities and rebound. A stiffer boot will transmit that energy back to the skier. Putting the skier into the "backseat." That can be mitigated by good technical or good instruction.

The Fischer Vac generally flex on the softer side. If you want to take it off piste, talk to the boot fitter about molding it with a more upright angle.

 

[nesneros]

I disagree with that theory. Skiing is a sport about subtlety. If your subtle movements are absorbed by ill-fitting boots, you have to make gross movements. Eventually you are gonna have to stop doing that. Might as well do it now. It'll feel like a whole new sport the first time out, but a better sport.

Sure, at some point one has to jump into the deep end. I think I got that theory from reading reviews and/or "common mistakes" articles about putting people into boots that are beyond their ability.

 

[nesneros]

$1,200 worth of lessons will go farther than $1,200 of boots.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think one also has to have proper tools. I would assume that those $1,200 in lessons wouldn't be nearly as effective if you're held back by alignment issues and loose boots. There probably *are* situations where people agonize over gear and your sentiment is true, training would be a better fix.

 

[nesneros]

The Fischer RC4 Podium GT is not a true race boot but a low volume very efficient boot. Without seeing your feet, it is really difficult to say of it is the right option but lets assume that it is. As mentioned, it is not an abducted boot either, Fischer has evolved away from that design over the years. @nesneros, you mentioned that you didn't ahve you old footbeds with you and that you might want to keep them for your old boots. if these are only two years old, and if they were molded correctly and well, they should be able to be used in these, I would still say they are a consideration. You also mentioned issues like riding your inside edges, did you mention this to the fitter and if so, did he take a look at your alignment? With this boot, some of that can be corrected in the mold process but you still might need some external canting.

I did mention everything to him around feeling like I need canting and feeling like I need to do extra work to get off my inside edges, and he showed me how my lack of foot arch is contributing to this. I expect we will do an alignment when I get the boot.

He used a plumb from my knee in the process of taking the initial footbed molds to shape the footbed where my knee will track correctly over the foot, which the original Sidas footbed seller did not do when heat molding them. I emailed with him over the weekend about what makes his footbed different and he wants me to bring the Sidas in with me next time so he can show me.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Without knowing the specific shop you went to (and having lived in PC since 1986 I know pretty much all the serious boot fitters in the area), I’d say that you got decent, sensible advice that you shouldn’t second guess. Foot beds are very important for a foot such as you describe and $300 is not crazy for a top end product. Much more important than flex per se is correct alignment and forward lean which enables you to use the boot properly to provide feedback on posture and fore/aft balance. My own prejudice is that boots should be as stiff as seems feasible provided they fit and are set up perfectly. Others disagree (but they are wrong ).

 

[markojp]

I did mention everything to him around feeling like I need canting and feeling like I need to do extra work to get off my inside edges, and he showed me how my lack of foot arch is contributing to this. I expect we will do an alignment when I get the boot.

He used a plumb from my knee in the process of taking the initial footbed molds to shape the footbed where my knee will track correctly over the foot, which the original Sidas footbed seller did not do when heat molding them. I emailed with him over the weekend about what makes his footbed different and he wants me to bring the Sidas in with me next time so he can show me.

Sounds like he's making a 'corrective' footbed. Since he's using the term 'orthotic', he must be an MD, which is why his footbed prices are most likely higher.

 

[François Pugh]

Skiing in loose mushy boots is like driving a car with fur mitts inside oven mitts. If you want forgiveness put a 1 degree (instead of 0.5 degree) base bevel on your skis. Responsive boots that fit well reward good movements.

 

[Marker]

It will take way more than $250 to make a 26 boot to work properly with a 25 foot. Much easier to start with a 25 boot that fits properly.

Maybe not. Before committing to serious $$$ for new boots, I modified my 31.5 Lange RX100 boots that I skied as a low intermediate skier by adding Bontex insoles and some rubber pads around the ankles (Thank you, Tognar) with a Sidas heat-moldable insole ( I got a deal and paid a lot less than the OP). I immediately felt a difference in responsive and performance, which convinced me to upgrade the next season. So as an intermediate I also ended up in a stiff low-volume "race" boot - Lange RS130 in 30.5 - which was arrived at by trying on many different all-mtn boots that were too wide. Every boot the shop pulled out for me was a 120-130 in 29.5-30.5, but then I'm a bit larger (6'6", 230 lb). Only the RS130 was truly snug out of the box, but they had to special order it. I transferred the Sidas insole and used it for a few years, but last season I got a custom footbed made (not orthotic) for about $150 (I have a pretty normal foot, except long and skinny). These are highly responsive and a joy to ski. I've skied in what passes for powder on the East coast and did fine.

@nesneros we have walked similar paths. I would only suggest this route if you want to test drive a snugger fit. It sounds like you are making the better choice.