Instructor might quit because he still sucks at skiing.

[HeluvaSkier]

In other words, no normal Level 3...

I'd say similar to how JF is no normal CSIA L4. Both are great skiers.

Both guys are doing a lot of the right things by skiing with people from different backgrounds from all over the world and then bringing it back home. I enjoy watching both ski and have enjoyed watching them evolve over the years.

 

[Magi]

MODERATORS: feel free to split this off to a "CSIA vs PSIA" thread.

I’m training for my CSIA L4 and guess what has been some of the most useful material to me that’s available online? The PSIA-RM tasks ... e.g. reading about the fundamentals skills needed for a successful Wedge Christie demo (no longer taught in Canada).

Having researched both CSIA and PSIA extensively, I would agree that it's fair to rank the base standards, from most difficult/rigorous to least, like so:

• CSIA 4
  • PSIA 3
• CSIA 3
  • PSIA 2
• CSIA 2
  • PSIA 1
• CSIA 1

...

Thank you for taking the time to write this - fabulous post.

I will say this of the CSIA Level 4's -- all of them I've skied with are skiing gods. They perform at an extremely high level. Most of PSIA's examiners would not be able to keep up.

I'm guessing we both have sample size biases here, but I've found CSIA level 4's to be roughly equivalent to PSIA-RM "RMT" (Rocky Mountain Trainer, aka can pass the L3 exam at about a 5.5 average).

 

[François Pugh]

MODERATORS: feel free to split this off to a "CSIA vs PSIA" thread.

........

Relating it back to CSIA vs PSIA (and having spectated many exams in both systems), I would say that an L3 from Whistler is very close to a PSIA L3. They may not be familiar with PSIA exam tasks, but I guarantee you that the Whistler CSIA examiners are looking for all the same fundamental skills and competencies in a candidate's skiing, demonstrated in similar expert terrain. The pass rate at Whistler L3 exams is <10% (more like 5%), especially at the end of the season where 40+ candidates will contest it and only 2 or 3 pass (I cried in my beer at several of these).

There seems to be another thing PSIA and CSIA share, a low success rate (measured by the examination pass rate).
One would think an "Instructor" organization would be better able to instruct there members.

 

[jzmtl]

There seems to be another thing PSIA and CSIA share, a low success rate (measured by the examination pass rate).
One would think an "Instructor" organization would be better able to instruct there members.

Skiing isn't math, you can't instruct someone to high level if they don't have the physique and time commitment, especially consider it's just a hobby for even most instructors.

 

[LiquidFeet]

.... a low success rate (measured by the examination pass rate). One would think an "Instructor" organization would be better able to instruct there members.

Skiing isn't math, you can't instruct someone to high level if they don't have the physique and time commitment, especially consider it's just a hobby for even most instructors.

About those low pass rates.....
In a high school Algebra class, or an undergraduate class on Modern Literature, or a Macro-Economics class, or an Electricity and Magnetism class, if 75% of the students fail a test, is it OK for the teacher to blame the students? How about in a PE class? Or Touch-Typing (do they even teach this any more)? Or Music, or Drama class, or French II, high school Industrial Arts, Advanced Painting? In any of these, if 75% or more of the students fail a test, or the exam, or the semester, is it ever OK to blame the students?

 

[Monique]

About those low pass rates.....
In a high school Algebra class, or an undergraduate class on Modern Literature, or a Macro-Economics class, or an Electricity and Magnetism class, if 75% of the students fail a test, is it OK for the teacher to blame the students? How about in a PE class? Or Touch-Typing (do they even teach this any more)? Or Music, or Drama class, or French II, high school Industrial Arts, Advanced Painting? In any of these, if 75% or more of the students fail a test, or the exam, or the semester, is it ever OK to blame the students?

I'll bite. What about tests for the Navy SEALs? The pass rate is 1 in 4 *after* having been accepted, and they only accept 6% of applicants. Are they doing it wrong?

 

[LiquidFeet]

GOOD point.
That would mean passing PSIA/CSIA LII, LIII, LIV are all like passing a Navy Seal test.

Does that sound right to people? Maybe it is.
That means I'm like a LII Navy Seal. Huh.

 

[Monique]

GOOD point.
That would mean passing PSIA/CSIA LII, LIII, LIV are all like passing a Navy Seal test.

Does that sound right to people? Maybe it is.
That means I'm like a LII Navy Seal. Huh.

It's not a perfect comparison ... but it does make the point that there are well-accepted institutions that have low success rates. It can also serve as motivation to some people - to be accepted into such a rarified group.

But, sure, LII Navy Seal - why not?

 

[wutangclan]

GOOD point.
That would mean passing PSIA/CSIA LII, LIII, LIV are all like passing a Navy Seal test.

Does that sound right to people? Maybe it is.
That means I'm like a LII Navy Seal. Huh.

I can't comment on PSIA, but I explicitly provided CSIA BC stats for 2016/17:

L1: 1200+
L2: 500
L3: 45
L4: 6

Keep in mind that there are only about 4000 active instructors in BC in a typical winter. If anything, the bar for CSIA L1 is too low (and contributes to the devaluation of instructor wages), and it would be silly to claim that CSIA L2 or L3 are as exclusive as the Navy Seals. L4 is definitely a high bar, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[wutangclan]

There seems to be another thing PSIA and CSIA share, a low success rate (measured by the examination pass rate).
One would think an "Instructor" organization would be better able to instruct there members.

Again I can't comment on PSIA, but certainly with the CSIA you are making a non-sequitur between low pass rates and member training. I've been through the exam wringer myself many, many times, and while the training I received wasn't perfect, I would hardly blame it for my past failures. I would attribute the low pass rate for CSIA L3 and L4 to these factors:
1) cocky instructors just don't get that they're not up to snuff (aka Dunning Kruger effect), so don't train in the right way or as hard as they should
2) full time instructors can barely make ends meet, thus work too much and aren't able to train as much as they would like
3) life (other job, family) gets in the way of part time instructors training as much as they would like
4) older instructors don't maintain their fitness
5) small mountain instructors don't have access to the snow/terrain/mentorship needed to train properly
6) the L3 and L4 standards are hard, plain and simple

Relating it all back to the OP, I think #3, #5, and #6 are most applicable for him.

 

[James]

Again I can't comment on PSIA, but certainly with the CSIA you are making a non-sequitur between low pass rates and member training. I've been through the exam wringer myself many, many times, and while the training I received wasn't perfect, I would hardly blame it for my past failures. I would attribute the low pass rate for CSIA L3 and L4 to these factors:
1) cocky instructors just don't get that they're not up to snuff (aka Dunning Kruger effect), so don't train in the right way or as hard as they should
2) full time instructors can barely make ends meet, thus work too much and aren't able to train as much as they would like
3) life (other job, family) gets in the way of part time instructors training as much as they would like
4) older instructors don't maintain their fitness
5) small mountain instructors don't have access to the snow, terrain (and perhaps expert mentorship) needed to train properly
6) the L3 and L4 standards are just hard, plain and simple

Relating it all back to the OP, I think #3, #5, and #6 are most applicable for him.

You forgot 7) - that basically there's no outside incentive. People do it for themselves. It's not like they're going to recoup the money spent on training/exams in increased pay beyond L2 or even that.

 

[François Pugh]

With a pass rate of 5 to 10 percent, are these "cocky instructors" advised that they needn't bother taking the exam, but take it despite the advice?

 

[wutangclan]

You forgot 7) - that basically there's no outside incentive. People do it for themselves. It's not like they're going to recoup the money spent on training/exams in increased pay beyond L2 or even that.

The incentives depend on the resort. I know it's less common, but my snow school reimburses fees for courses and passed (not failed) exams. And even without reimbursement, the pay raise (typically an additional $1-2/hour at Canadian resorts) means you do make back your investment within one full-time season.

Still, the rarity of incentives doesn't really dissuade a high rate of exam-attempts, at least not here in BC.

With a pass rate of 5 to 10 percent, are these "cocky instructors" advised that they needn't bother taking the exam, but take it despite the advice?

This is a gray area and perhaps the only real criticism I have for some (not all) CSIA trainers. It being a customer-oriented industry, there's sometimes a tendency to be "nice" and not give candidates the plain, unvarnished truth. Instead, the standard refrain is "Fix x, y, and z and you'd be very close."

But now that I'm a trainer (but only an L1 examiner), I see things from the other side and find myself using the same line. There are a few problems with giving candidates a straight up "you're ready / not ready" verdict.
1) Their every day skiing often doesn't correlate to exam-day skiing. Unfortunately, instructors often have the same recreational mindset as their target customers, thus their performance psychology is lacking. They don't have the mental toughness that racers take years develop, therefore choke when it's show time. Conversely, a candidate who wasn't ready a couple of weeks before exam day might make a break through in intensive training in the final days leading up to it.
2) Telling a candidate that they're ready can lead to them slacking off in training.
3) Telling a candidate that they're NOT ready might have little effect because they don't really understand the specific reasons why they're not ready, even when they receive detailed feedback. As we saw with the extensive discussion regarding Wedge Christie's, it can take many, many iterations of training and examination for someone to truly get something as "simple" as the whys and hows of flattening the inside ski.

And finally, yes, many cocky candidates (usually the 16-25 year olds) ignore advice not to take the exam, perhaps because they underestimate how difficult it can be to change deeply-ingrained movement patterns or learn new ones. There's plenty of FIGJAM-bros around and we've all been guilty at one time or another of being one. I certainly was, in the beginning, and being humbled through failure was a good thing.

 

[wutangclan]

As I reflect on this topic further, I realize there’s one more significant factor that skews the CSIA L3 exam participation/pass rates. As mentioned before, a huge portion of instructors come to Canada from overseas on 1- or 2-year working-holiday visas. They pass their L1 and L2 in the first year, then prematurely contest the L3 because it's a prerequisite for a long-term, employer-sponsored work visa. It becomes very stressful for a lot of these new, foreign instructors because, unless they are exceptionally experienced/talented, the journey toward attaining the L3 can't really be rushed. I'd say that a good 30% of the L3 candidates fall into this category, and unfortunately most of them go back to their home-country empty-handed.

So while it's not fair of me to attribute most of the premature exam-attempts to "cocky instructors" (though there are many), neither is it fair to accuse the teachers (CSIA) of inadequately training members. Rather, it's just one more symptom of the tough realities of working in the globalized ski industry, to go along with the low pay and high cost of living in resorts.

 

[markojp]

There seems to be another thing PSIA and CSIA share, a low success rate (measured by the examination pass rate).
One would think an "Instructor" organization would be better able to instruct there members.

Bust out the popcorn... Being that you're not involved in CSIA or PSIA, I don't think you have much to go on other than opinion formed from the outside looking in, and the thread quickly devolves into a bunch of folks who don't know telling those who actually participate in teaching and taking exams "this is how it is". I'd encourage you to jump in and give it a go. If you see problems in your area, work to influence things for the better.

But to the point, at higher levels of instruction certification, skiing is an athletic endeavor. Most folks don't have the time to put in enough hours on the hill both skiing and teaching to reach L3 or higher, and often even L2 (PSIA). There will never ever ever NEVER be high pass rates at higher levels. It'd be great if everyone showed up ready to pass. I know there's always enough new pins on hand to give one to everyone if it ever were to occur, and I don't know any examiners who didn't wish this was the case, but it just doesn't happen .L1 is much more difficult in our division than it was, but it's still truly is attainable by nearly anyone with some concerted effort, training, and a season or two of part time teaching. If failure rates were high at the entry level, then there'd be cause for concern. Ski pretty ok is well within most people's grasp. Ski really well is a craft honed over years and many many miles.

 

[markojp]

You forgot 7) - that basically there's no outside incentive. People do it for themselves. It's not like they're going to recoup the money spent on training/exams in increased pay beyond L2 or even that.

Not true at all for many larger and/or destination resorts and certainly many if not most around here. L3 got me a large pay bump and opportunity to train and manage staff. Even if you have to pay the freight of your L3 exam costs, in this area it more than pays for itself as most of the the local hills give deeply discounted and even free day passes if you show them your membership card.

 

[jzmtl]

But to the point, higher levels of instruction certification, skiing is an athletic endeavor. Most folks don't have the time to put in enough hours on the hill both skiing and teaching to reach L3 or higher, and often even L2 (PSIA). There will never ever ever NEVER be high pass rates at higher levels.

Yep, it's more like high school students going for tennis class at YMCA after school, if they can do well then good, if not then oh well. I know someone who is working his level 3 and he pretty much ski 5 days a week from morning to when he has to start his night shift, not something everyone can commit to, especially with a family.

 

[Mike King]

I don't think most of the public realizes how big of a task it is to ski/teach/do ma at the Level 3, let alone the Level 2 standard. Every person is different and comes to an athletic endeavor with different strengths, weaknesses, flaws, and conceptions. It all has to be worked through and is a process. The level 3 standard, in particular, is really tough and requires a lot of work to achieve.

One of our trainers is a long-time Examiner in both PSIA East and RM. He got his level 3 30 years ago. He also kept meticulous records of what it cost him -- $37,000. That's the cost not only of the direct fees for exams, clinics, coaching, etc., but also the lost wages while he was training.

So, while you can get a pay raise or have a resort pay the successful exam fees, there's still a huge investment the individual has in getting certified.

I really don't know how the folk who pursue ski instruction as a career find the time and resources to pass their Level 3.

Mike

 

[T-Square]

Moderator Note:

The PSIA-CSIA portion of this discussion now has it's own thread: PSIA - CSIA Compare and Contrast the Organizations (Training, Certification, and Teaching).

Please continue that portion of this discussion there.

Thank you.

 

[Doby Man]

Dude, don’t quit. You are not alone. There is help ...


The 12 Steps of Advanced Intermediate Anonymous

1. We admitted we were powerless over momentum - that the direction of our CoM had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a mentor greater than ourselves could restore us beyond our stubborn plateau.

3. Made a decision to turn our CoM and our BoS over to the care of Gravity as we understood it.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of all our seperation motor patterns.

5. Admitted to Gravity, to ourselves and to another human skier the exact nature of our faulty movements.

6. Were entirely ready to have an L3 remove all these defects of our technique.

7. Humbly asked Gravity to remove our shortcomings, asymmetry, backseat riding and weight on the inside.

8. Made a list of all skiers we had given bad advice, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such skiers wherever possible, except when to do so would incite them to violence.

10. Continued to take personal motor pattern inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through speed and its momentum to improve our conscious contact with Gravity as we understood it, praying only for knowledge of its will for us and the power to shred.

12. Having had a proprioceptive awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other skiers and to practice these principles in all our Gravity based affairs.