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Instructor might quit because he still sucks at skiing.

Magi

Instructor
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Apr 8, 2017
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Winter Park, Colorado
So I think you should see if you can get a year off your job, sell all your stuff, pick up the family and move to Vail to work full-time for a season.

I recommend this plan - I'm on season three of it. :)

Point of clarification: I thought Rocky Mountain had a 2 year limit for completing all three?

In RM, toi my knowledge as of today, Parts lapse at 3 years from date of acquisition.
 

DavidSkis

Thinking snow
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Sep 14, 2017
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Toronto
Why are there few level 3 and 4 instructors out there? In Canada? Dunno.
TLDR: Our terrain isn't great and it's too far away, and that makes it far more challenging to improve.

For me, all the factors I mentioned earlier are hard to bring together in Ontario. The nearest OK hill is 1.5h away from Toronto, the largest population centre, though my main coach hates skiing there. The hill where level 3 exams run is 2-2.5h away. And even at that, neither hill has a lot of terrain that helps you discover or consolidate the sensations of good skiing.

Skiing is a real sensory sport. When you find the "sweet spot" on your ski, turning becomes far less work. When you feel yourself balance on the outside leg at the top of the turn, it gives you the ability to shape the turn. When you allow separation to occur between the upper and lower body, your legs "unwind" into the next turn all on their own. These kinds of outcomes give you physical "feelings" in your body. Once you've locked in a feeling, it becomes your reference point. If the next time you ski, that "feeling" is gone, you can run through your checklist and self-assess and self-correct. E.g. when I'm not feeling good steering or can't easily initiate a short radius, for me, I revisit my separation and my mobility, and 9 times out of 10, I can get that feeling back. But I can only self-correct because I experienced those good feelings in the first place.

In Ontario, and probably in many parts of the US, our terrain is almost all too easy or too short to easily develop good feelings of high performance skiing. We have one bump run about 300' in length, or a genuinely steep pitch that also flattens out after about 300'. Any intermediate skier can skitter down those two runs and think "wow, I did it!". But a developing skier needs more time to carry the good feelings from easy to hard terrain - and that's tough to do with such a small amount of good terrain.

Somewhere like Mont-Sainte-Anne, in contrast, has genuinely long stretches of steeps (e.g. Super S) or bumps (la Soumande). These stretches let you either "lock in" a good feeling, or coach you that you don't have the feeling--and allow you to sort things out on that same run. I have (re)discovered more good feelings at Mont-Sainte-Anne in my first 3 days of skiing here (under level 4 coaching) than I did in the multiple months spent back in Ontario.

So while it's possible to become a level 3 or 4 skiing mostly back home... it's felt like an uphill battle, even with the awesome coaches we have available. Hats off to the folks who can pull it off. Back on topic for the OP, it would definitely help to move closer to awesome skiing! But even if you can't do that, a good multi-week stint in a training program like Rookie Academy would help you get close to your goals (save those pennies).
 
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Monique

bounceswoosh
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And just to clarify for anyone following along from home:

CSIA goes up to level 4; PSIA goes up to level 3. Can anyone speak to whether these two levels are (sort of) equivalent?
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
And just to clarify for anyone following along from home:

CSIA goes up to level 4; PSIA goes up to level 3. Can anyone speak to whether these two levels are (sort of) equivalent?
nope, not even close. Level 4's are skiing gods.

The closest equivalency is a PSIA Level 3 examiner. That requires going through trainer selection, E-1, and E-2.

Mike
 

MattFromCanada

Professional Something-or-another
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Vancouver/Whistler
^^^ that is what I always heard. So next question, how does a CSIA 3 compare to a PSIA 3? Similar?


From what I've heard, it all depends on who you ask, and which division you're comparing to. Also from what I can tell, the PSIA 3 exam places far more of an emphasis on how well you can demonstrate drills, while the CSIA 3 focuses more on your skiing demos.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Looking for some feedback on the above title.

This is my 4th season as an instructor at a small mid-atlantic hill. 4 years ago, I became an instructor with the idea that my skiing would improve. I have worked part-time since then for about 60 - 90 hours per season. Not much, but with a real job and family, that's about as much as I could muster.

As with many instructors, my first season involved teaching beginners to ski in group lessons. During that season my teaching technique was refined enough to the point that I was very comfortable doing it. I learned a great deal. Because of my limited hours and time on the hill, I didn't get a chance to train that often. To compound the issue, there isn't that much training for instructors. There isn't any mid-week training and very few clinics on the weekends. Even if there is an afternoon clinic, say on Saturday, most instructors are working.

My second season I was certified as a Level 1 skier. I basically studied and trained by myself for the Level 1. I would grab the occasional Level 2 or Level 3 skier to help the my demos. The level 1 exam wasn't difficult as most people understand. I remember thinking that some of the skiers at the exam had no business teaching anyone beyond the very beginner lessons. We had 1 instructor in the group that had only skied a black run once or twice before. I thought that was quite unbelievable. We had instructors show up to the exam that had no idea a Level 1 workbook even existed. Again, unbelievable. Everyone passed, btw. The examiner mentioned that I was a little too far back in my stance. Whether this was known or not by my local trainer, it was the first I heard of it. I was a bit angry at first, not at him, but at the trainer at my local mountain for not alerting me to this prior to the exam. It's something I probably could have fixed. He saw it in my demos and said that it was showing up in my skiing as well.

I thought by my 3rd season I'd get my CS1. They didn't offer any classes close by last season and to add to that difficulty I tore my calf last year about mid-season, which finished me up for the year. Last season I tried to ski with the trainer more often, but probably only skied with him a couple times before my injury.

So, this season, my fourth, I find myself still not much further than when I started several years ago. My skiing has changed, but it isn't where I want it. As I look to the Level 2 skiing requirements, I just don't think I'll have enough time or ability to get there. As an example, one requirement for level 2 is to ski bumps. My local hill doesn't have bumps. How does one train to ski bumps without any bumps...

I think my limited schedule and the lack of training at my local hill has hampered my progress. I have more and more thoughts of not coming back next year. At this point it feels as though I'm stuck in a rut. I'm providing lessons for the resort, but I'm not getting the necessary training to improve.

Wondering if any of you have gone through this and could possibly shed some light on how you've handled it.

Thanks.
You have to ask yourself why you are teaching skiing. If your honest answer is because you want to teach people to ski, then come back.
If you are only teaching as a means of learning better yourself, then don't come back; devote your time on snow to learning to become a better skier.

Teaching something does help with one's own knowledge, but that is a side effect if you will. There are better ways to learn.
 

oldschoolskier

Making fresh tracks
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IMHO the bar for level 1 and 2 (CSIA) is set to low, yes you may be able to demonstrate skills, but a lot that I have met can’t ski well enough or have all the skill sets.

That said, the higher level instructors generally are way better. Night and day difference better.

Sad part is most new and intermediate skiers are taught by 1 and 2’s, which in the case of intermediates some ski better than the instructors.

Sorry don’t have answer for the fix, but I suspect it’s based on how little instructors get paid.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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You have to ask yourself why you are teaching skiing. If your honest answer is because you want to teach people to ski, then come back.
If you are only teaching as a means of learning better yourself, then don't come back; devote your time on snow to learning to become a better skier.

Teaching something does help with one's own knowledge, but that is a side effect if you will. There are better ways to learn.

I think this also depends on the mountain. I know a number of people in Colorado who have used paid instruction to slingshot their skiing - because they have access to excellent free training. (Also discounted lessons.) YMMV here, of course, and it sounds like the OP's situation is different.
 

markojp

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Wow, this thread has gotten interesting again! David, thanks for the great contributions! First off, I'm an often and self-professed fan of CSIA. I've gotten a lot from their online information and videos. I'd love to run up to Whistler and do a 2-3 day clinic to experience things first hand. I've said many times that half my PSIA dues should go north. ogsmile

Relative ability of L3 in both associations... that's a tough one as it's inconsistent within our organization (PSIA). IMHO, the best L3 in PSIA are between CSIA L3 and 4. I think preparing for and passing CSIA L4 is certainly an attainable goal for this group. That said, there are all too many PSIA L3 who are no longer current and couldn't pass their L3 exam if they were required to take it again. This doesn't included those very special instructors who have great eyes and communication skills, are conceptually 'current', but no longer have the physical skills because of age or injury. What David said about 'where' is very important, both in terms of terrain, and the culture of the local ski school. The latter can't be underestimated. I have no first hand experience in the East, but from exam prep videos I've seen, it would appear that there's a lack of time and opportunity to work on skiing skills.

A quick question for CSIA members... Is there a mechanism for helping or requiring your members to continue skiing and teaching to individual level standards?
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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A quick question for CSIA members... Is there a mechanism for helping or requiring your members to continue skiing and teaching to individual level standards?

Not CSIA, but RM has started a "certification update" course that must be taken every 4 years by Level 2 and 3 instructors. Here's the blurb about it:

This two-day clinic is reqquired to be taken once every four years as part of Level 2 and 3 alpine certified member's continuing education. The educational content covered through the certification process is constantly evolving and is representative of guest needs, member school needs, and the direction of the national organization. This clinic evolves with the certification process and is designed to accomplish our membership’s goal of being current in their understanding and practice as a certified professional. The clinic content is updated and redesigned each year to provide you with the most updated and current information on teaching methodology, technical understanding, and personal skiing to help you perform at the top of your game for your guests.​

Participants will be exposed to new ideas and information, receive skiing feedback based on their certification level, and have opportunities to share questions and ideas about the state of snowsports instruction and the industry.​
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
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When PSIA first created the LI, the evaluating could be done by LIIIs. The next year or two, it became an event requiring an examiner.
 

wutangclan

Getting on the lift
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Apr 25, 2017
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A quick question for CSIA members... Is there a mechanism for helping or requiring your members to continue skiing and teaching to individual level standards?

Yes and no ... there’s the periodic “recall”, i.e. you must attend update clinics every couple of years. But these are not pass/fail; you just attend them and you’re good. Frankly, as a result, every Canadian resort has a handful older instructors who are rather out-of-date in both their skiing and their teaching.
 

T-Square

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We have the same thing with PSIA. People with certifications that don’t keep up with current standards. We are required to take continuing education clinics. I tend to take those clinics that are technically oriented. But then too, I’m a technical nut. There are many good clinics offered.

It is the same with all professions. There are individuals that don’t keep up. As a licensed Professional Engineer I was required to take 30 hours of continuing education credits every 2 years. You can get credit for attending lectures. It doesn’t mean you are keeping up with the latest ideas in your field but at least you are getting exposed to some.
 

James

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Examiners in the East this year had to go to an evaluation clinc to get their skiing passed. I think that's the first in quite some time. Probably this century. Such things are expensive as everyone is paid. The figure I heard was $16 or 26k, can't remember, but a significant amount.
 

Goose

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Im not sure where this fits in but fwiw (not just in skiing but a lot of things) I don't feel one has to be real good at something in order to teach it. That said, skiing is a bit different because its done together out on the slopes. Though technically it can also be done in the classroom. And with video and also student video. I think of golf. An instructor (to the misguided logic of many) doesn't have to be better than his/her student in order to teach the student. But only hast to better understand it all and be able to see the faults or lack of skill areas of the student. Professionals in just about anything have instructors teaching them too and if you really think about that,..... the athlete(professional student) is better at actually doing it than his/her own instructor is. You never hear them say "well, why am I listening to you when your not better than me"

As for being more in tune with the topic,.......there is one thing that seems to collectively risen throughout the posts and that is resources (or lack of). The most dominant ones being availability of time and terrain and possibly money. For an instructor to advance he/she then imo becomes the student. And just like any student he/she needs those resources to then be taught and also practice what they are taught. Assuming the resource of time is the same, more advancement (or I should just say more avenues to advancement) imo can be taught, learned, and practiced, at say Killington vs camelback and more of that can be done at whistler vs Killington. More conditions, more terrain, more people involved. And just over all more avenues more readily available more often to be able advance. Its sort of a catch-22 as well because the more available avenues and resources anything has the more it produces while less produces less. The former cycles upwards while the later has very little if any movement.

Being stuck (so to say) one imo has to question what the goal is. If the desire and satisfaction is the teaching itself then so be it and so just teach what you can to who you can help. If that is not enough (and I can certainly understand that) then its more about advancing and teaching higher levels. Then imo you become the student and need to seek the avenues available and like any student one needs the resources (some of which mentioned above) to even begin to do that in the first place.

In many ways (as a recreational skier) I find frustration being stuck to mostly Pocono resorts where as anything else needs to be a more planned and more costly trip requiring resources of time and money. What can I do? With the exception of moving my life elsewhere Im stuck where I am as for skiing. Are some of those same frustrations that of instructors for some of the same reasons? I don't truly know that answer cause im not nor ever was an instructor but are some the things I mention above that work against advanced learning over all the same for an instructor as it is for a recreational skier?
 

hrstrat57

Skis guitars Mustangs
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Im not sure where this fits in but fwiw (not just in skiing but a lot of things) I don't feel one has to be real good at something in order to teach it. That said, skiing is a bit different because its done together out on the slopes. Though technically it can also be done in the classroom. And with video and also student video. I think of golf. An instructor (to the misguided logic of many) doesn't have to be better than his/her student in order to teach the student. But only hast to better understand it all and be able to see the faults or lack of skill areas of the student. Professionals in just about anything have instructors teaching them too and if you really think about that,..... the athlete(professional student) is better at actually doing it than his/her own instructor is. You never hear them say "well, why am I listening to you when your not better than me"
?

Brilliant stuff here. Golf student are often light years better than their coaches. Heck my players were often better than me when I coached youth sports.

Never quite understood the mega egos of ski instructors despite being amongst them for many years!
 

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