Instructor might quit because he still sucks at skiing.

[oldschoolskier]

@VAski I’m not going to tell you, you suck or am I going to suggest that you quit. Far from it. You understand that there is an issue you just haven’t figured out how to fix it yet.

@Josh Matta alludes to it (and what he states is correct BTW).

I’ll give you the recommendation I give everyone BALANCE AND EDGE FEEL. Develop this and the skills become easier and new one easier to learn. 10-20sec per run, 360’s, side slips, falling leaf etc, will develop those skills among other things. These are not an end all solution, just a very simple development for a skill that should become instinctive.

As @Josh Matta indicated it about doing the demonstration showing all parts while not looking like a demonstration. This is the instinctive balance and edge feel that allows him to do this.

Your comment about being back, will correct itself because you will start to feel it as the feel starts to develop.

Learn the right technique, but don’t forget the simple basics it’s all based on....Balance and Edge Feel, do it as part of your play and warm up or waiting for a student. No one needs to know that you are doing a drill.

 

[tch]

I'm not a ski instructor, but I taught 37 years and ran workshops for teachers. One thing is really clear: there are good "doers" and there are good teachers. The two things are NOT necessarily synonymous. On the other hand, it is possible to have teaching improve doing, just as much as doing can improve teaching.

I think I'd echo what others have already said. What is your primary objective? Is it to get better so you are a better skier? Or is it to get better so you can be a better instructor? If you can prioritize or focus, then you'll have a better sense of what to do. There are a lot of suggestions here, ranging from "go ahead and quit -- you'll bet better faster" to ideas about off-site clinics, etc. But establishing your objective will help guide you as to which is the best advice for you. Think on this.

The only other input I can offer is not much help. Clearly, the training and standards are going to be better at bigger, more desireable ski areas. Park City (where my daughter teaches) has more time, resources, and, frankly, a stronger pool of applicants to work with than some small local hill. That's not to say that good training is not out there at small hills; it's just that it's rarer. If you want to go the instructor route and a local resort has a better program than the one at yours....go there.

 

[HardDaysNight]

The bar is still fairly high to get hired by most ski schools isn't it?
.

Yes; at a minimum you need to be able to breathe independently and to stand unassisted (although exceptions can be made to this last criterion). There seems to be a view among ski schools that fobbing kids off with completely inexperienced “instructors” is fine because, after all, they’re just beginners. Nothing could be more wrong-minded. I’ve often seen a little train of youngsters following a guy in an instructor’s uniform skiing bolt upright, leaning back and starting every turn by throwing his shoulders into it. And guess what - the kids looked like mini-mes, mimicking this doofus to perfection. Their early steps on snow ruined. There’s no reason their parents should know better; they trust the instructor and the school that provided him. Perhaps the instructor doesn’t know better either but the ski school director who hired him should be taken outside, trussed up in the cold and flogged.

 

[crgildart]

Yes; at a minimum you need to be able to breathe independently and to stand unassisted (although exceptions can be made to this last criterion). There seems to be a view among ski schools that fobbing kids off with completely inexperienced “instructors” is fine because, after all, they’re just beginners. Nothing could be more wrong-minded. I’ve often seen a little train of youngsters following a guy in an instructor’s uniform skiing bolt upright, leaning back and starting every turn by throwing his shoulders into it. And guess what - the kids looked like mini-mes, mimicking this doofus to perfection. Their early steps on snow ruined. There’s no reason their parents should know better; they trust the instructor and the school that provided him. Perhaps the instructor doesn’t know better either but the ski school director who hired him should be taken outside, trussed up in the cold and flogged.

Wow, I guess you get what you pay for?? Talking about the ski school getting what they pay for, not the client.. Did these folks have a PSIA pin of any kind?

 

[KevinF]

I can empathize with the OP's situation. I taught for one season at a small mid-Atlantic hill.with limited training opportunities which seemed to serve primarily as an opportunity for the training staff to laugh / mock / insult the skiing / teaching skills of the junior instructors. One of their comments to me during "training" makes me wish -- to this day, 20 years later -- that I had quit on the spot.

I shudder when I think of what I taught to my students in my blissful ignorance. As @HardDaysNight said, the hiring requirements were pretty low. I enjoyed teaching when I had motivated students, but I always dreaded what my class would bring me. Now that I have a better understanding of skiing concepts, theory, etc. from reading this forum I've thought about trying again.

It's sad to hear from some of the anecdotes mentioned previously in this thread that my experience -- while maybe not common -- doesn't sound that rare.

 

[Josh Matta]

I think the worst thing about working at these smaller hills is the no days off thing...... at Hidden Valley if you were there you were suppose to show up to every line up....

The thing is the more people keep working for these small hill, the owners and managers of the small hills really have no incentive to change that.

I think what worse than the lack of training at these smaller hills, is the will fully ignorance that goes on at larger hills. Its not that the instructors at the large hill are unaware or unable to find help on bettering themselves, but they either do it there way, and do not go to training maybe for the same reasons that Kevin feels. Makes me kind of sad for an entire organization that there are people who truly want to better this profession but are not in the right places to do so.

 

[mister moose]

So, this season, my fourth, I find myself still not much further than when I started several years ago. My skiing has changed, but it isn't where I want it. As I look to the Level 2 skiing requirements, I just don't think I'll have enough time or ability to get there. As an example, one requirement for level 2 is to ski bumps. My local hill doesn't have bumps. How does one train to ski bumps without any bumps...

I think my limited schedule and the lack of training at my local hill has hampered my progress. I have more and more thoughts of not coming back next year. At this point it feels as though I'm stuck in a rut. I'm providing lessons for the resort, but I'm not getting the necessary training to improve.

I think to a large extent, you need to face reality and recognize you won't achieve your stated goals where you are. You need to change your home mountain, perhaps travel to a further mountain less times for more days if possible. Also plan more trips to larger resorts on vacation weeks.

If you don't change your home mountain, why learn to ski bumps? There are no bumps at your home mountain to ski. In other words, are you chasing a pin for the pin's sake? What you don't say is what about skiing you enjoy that you aren't getting enough of. Are you saying that progress in technical skill is what drives you the most, as opposed to teaching or skiing itself?

Wow, I guess you get what you pay for?? Talking about the ski school getting what they pay for, not the client.. Did these folks have a PSIA pin of any kind?

Wait a minute. Isn't the on hill training (or lack of it) the primary factor? Just where exactly does the level one candidate get any training and teaching experience prior to getting certified?



What I've heard frequently from my skiing friends when talk turns to skiing better is "Why should I take a lesson when I can ski better than those [unimpressive] instructors?" Yes, the most visible instructors are those teaching the bulk of the business - beginners. The few intermediate lessons concentrate on basics, and most don't look very impressive. High level lessons on black terrain are rare. So even impressive Instructors don't look impressive on the hill. I don't see any upper level lesson marketing. Ski school ads feature kids smiling and high fiving, and adults conquering the bunny slope. Good stuff, but not inspiring to the advanced skier.

Parallel skiing used to be the pinnacle. Now it is relatively easy. If you can turn with your skis parallel, what else is there to learn? The ski industry isn't addressing that question anywhere near adequately.

In my view, low resort wages result from a large supply of willing participants that want a ski gig. Here at Killington there are over 200 ambassadors that work 25ish days a year for free in exchange for a season pass. There is a core of paid patrollers, but the rest are volunteers. It's a way larger dynamic than low ski instructor pay.

 

[jimmy]

"We're not looking for people who are great skiers. This is a Ski School, we can teach you that. We are looking for people who are great with people" says the recruiter to the new instructor candidate.

 

[VAski]

There's been some great suggestions and comments on this post. I appreciate them all!!!

 

[Tricia]

The examiner mentioned that I was a little too far back in my stance. Whether this was known or not by my local trainer, it was the first I heard of it. I was a bit angry at first, not at him, but at the trainer at my local mountain for not alerting me to this prior to the exam. It's something I probably could have fixed. He saw it in my demos and said that it was showing up in my skiing as well.

I have not seen you ski, and I don't know your gear set up so take this for what its worth.
Go to a bootfitter and give them this feedback.
Reason:
A couple years ago @Philpug and I shadowed and videoed a group that was working on their level two.
Half way through the day we went into a yurt to view the video. Two of the instructors who were really struggling with their demonstration had considerable boot alignment issues.
If your issue is gear, it could be the ski itself, your boots or bindings, or...a combination of any of these things.
IF its a gear issue.

I quoted Nancy's post because she has some incredible advice that shouldn't be buried on page one.

I don't know where you work or the makeup of your instructors/training staff. A couple of suggestions:

1. Can you find a quality mentor? Lots of people have opinions and suggestions about skiing. If you can find one person to be your guide, that is helpful.
2. If that person does not exist at your mountain, do you have the option of working elsewhere?
3. Take advantage of other resources - Rocky Mtn PSIA -videos.
4. Video your own skiing and work with people here to help.
5. Can you invest in a destination trip soemwhere and invest in a couple of days of privates with the right coach to help get a plan for improvement?
6. You are limited by time and to get from Level 1 to 2 - you need to maximize your mileage for skiing. You can work on MA and teaching off snow - by reviewing videos, coming up with progressions etc. which should increase your knowledge and may translate to your skiing.

 

[Chris Walker]

Not much, but with a real job and family, that's about as much as I could muster.

I understand that these are real constraints, but I am convinced that with limited time on snow, limited improvement is all that can be expected even under the best scenarios.

One of my fantasy projects would be a rigorous, long-term study of highly skilled skiers to identify behaviors that drive such success. I haven't seen anything similar in my limited reading of the literature, but I do know a few extremely skilled skiers and they all seem to have one thing in common: at one time or another, they had the opportunity to put in just a ton of miles on snow. My belief is that while this alone is not sufficient to lead to elite skill levels, (there also has to be good coaching, focused practice,etc.), it is necessary. I don't want to re-open the 10,000 hours debate, I don't know if there's any magic number of hours that leads to greatness, just that if you had the training opportunities you were expecting, would that really have led to the improvement you expected, given your limits on time on snow?

So I think you should see if you can get a year off your job, sell all your stuff, pick up the family and move to Vail to work full-time for a season. Pack in all the training and free-skiing you can, and then go back to Virginia and pick up where you left off. Your kids would probably have a memorable year. Hey, people have done crazier things, right? Maybe this is terrible advice. But maybe it would be the best thing you ever did.

 

[crgildart]

So I think you should see if you can get a year off your job, sell all your stuff, pick up the family and move to Vail to work full-time for a season. Pack in all the training and free-skiing you can, and then go back to Virginia and pick up where you left off. Your kids would probably have a memorable year. Hey, people have done crazier things, right? Maybe this is terrible advice. But maybe it would be the best thing you ever did.

Probably best to get the divorce over with first. Unless it is the shared goal of the entire family to become expert skiers as quickly as possible, wouldn't that seem a bit selfish (OK a LOT selfish) to topple everything else every other member of the family is pursuing as goals and local relationships so I can ski a little better??

 

[Chris Walker]

Tongue-in-cheek. Mostly. Sure my plan is drastic, and could potentially result in marital strife (depending on how well it was sold), and yes, selfish. But I do seriously think some reasonable arrangements could be made to rebalance things in such a way to afford more time on snow and better training. In my experience, family members are often more than willing to sacrifice for a little selfishness if it leads to happiness.

 

[crgildart]

Tongue-in-cheek. Mostly. Sure my plan is drastic, and could potentially result in marital strife (depending on how well it was sold), and yes, selfish. But I do seriously think some reasonable arrangements could be made to rebalance things in such a way to afford more time on snow and better training. In my experience, family members are often more than willing to sacrifice for a little selfishness if it leads to happiness.

I can see taking a couple of weeks and doing some seriously coached camps. I already suggested Mogul Logic at WP/MJ since bumps seems to be the target for improvement according to OP. Beyond that, sorry, but my skiing will never be more important than the livelihood and happiness of my other family members. Don't get married and have kids until you've gotten your fill of all these types of things.. Not saying you can't cake a few big chunks of serious time off here and there, but uprooting the whole family when the only real objective is my ski time is pretty insane. There will be ample time to ski bum out west after the kids are finished with school and we're retired. Mrscrgildart REALLY wants to get an RV and do some serious vacationing up east and out west so we're definitely on the same page here..

 

[Monique]

Probably best to get the divorce over with first. Unless it is the shared goal of the entire family to become expert skiers as quickly as possible, wouldn't that seem a bit selfish (OK a LOT selfish) to topple everything else every other member of the family is pursuing as goals and local relationships so I can ski a little better??

On the other hand, people do it for their kids, and we call them good parents.

isn't it good to model following your dreams?

 

[Chris Walker]

I can see taking a couple of weeks and doing some seriously coached camps. I already suggested Mogul Logic at WP/MJ since bumps seems to be the target for improvement according to OP. Beyond that, sorry, but my skiing will never be more important than the livelihood and happiness of my other family members. Don't get married and have kids until you've gotten your fill of all these types of things.. Not saying you can't cake a few big chunks of serious time off here and there, but uprooting the whole family when the only real objective is my ski time is pretty insane. There will be ample time to ski bum out west after the kids are finished with school and we're retired. Mrscrgildart REALLY wants to get an RV and do some serious vacationing up east and out west so we're definitely on the same page here..

My suggestion was meant to be whimsical exaggeration. That's what I meant when I said I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek. I hope that VAski wouldn't take that drastic of an action just because some idiot on the Internet told him to (unless of course his family wanted to).

The serious point is that, yes, I think asking graciously for the latitude in the family to make smaller-scale changes than my (tongue-in-cheek) plan that would afford more time on snow might be needed. I agree that the mogul camp would be a good example (although I don't think Mogul Logic is running a camp at WP/MJ this year, but there's always Bob's Mogul Camp). Things like that, or maybe using some personal time from work to attend a clinic in another state, sacrificing family time to teach an additional night a week, might not be too much to ask, depending on other commitments.

I'm not always being literal on here. I guess I didn't do a good enough job of explaining that I was joking about unilaterally uprooting the family since you quoted my post and continued arguing against uprooting the family so I'm just trying to be crystal clear. VAski: don't destroy your family over it. It was a joke. But it might be worth a conversation to find out what kind of changes would be acceptable.

 

[jimmy]

Don't worry, @crgildart is a member of the literal party. Nuance and sarcasm are just off the meter a bit, at least today

 

[crgildart]

On the other hand, people do it for their kids, and we call them good parents.

isn't it good to model following your dreams?

Much better to follow THEIR dreams. My folks gave it all for me and my sis to follow our dreams. Heck, I was playing music in rock bands trying to make it big well in to my 20s.. Got to ski pretty much anywhere I wanted to all through college. It's my turn to give it all for my kids. That's the way the model should work IMHO..

 

[HardDaysNight]

"We're not looking for people who are great skiers. This is a Ski School, we can teach you that. We are looking for people who are great with people" says the recruiter to the new instructor candidate.

I guess the OP’s complaint is that his ski school isn’t teaching him “that”. Perhaps it wouldn’t be a bad idea if the teaching of that preceded the turning loose of the instructor candidate on to the unsuspecting public.

 

[MikeS]

I am going to concur with the consensus that you need a mentor. Preferably a few of them. I spent my first few years instructing as a full timer, fresh out of college. I learned a lot during those years, and probably 90% of what I learned was while out skiing with my coworkers, informally. Clinics are great, but skiing with someone better than you is better.

Don't be shy seeking out that mentor. We're ski instructors; we love being insufferable know it alls, and showing off our godlike skills to lesser mortals.

If you can't find one where you're at, find another place to be. I know the pickings are somewhat slim that far south, but there are good skiers out there. I wouldn't suggest giving up on instructing just yet, though. There is a lot of value in teaching people skills, it helps you to incorporate them and understand them better than almost anything. Besides, instructing is fun, and it saves you money on otherwise expensive passes and lessons. I can tell you that experienced instructors are more apt to be free with advice and instruction with fellow instructors than they are with anybody in the general public. I can teach a lesson to another instructor, and it's just "skill sharing" and "talking shop".. just helping out a colleague. If I teach it to someone else, it's a lesson, and I'm going to want compensation, in money, food, alcohol or sex. (kidding about the sex... maybe ).

I think instructing is an excellent opportunity to improve your skills. More than anything, because it puts you in a community of people who want to learn and improve.