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Inside / outside ski

Started at 53

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OK, most if not ALL of my posts in this thread have been intended to be humorous and/or sarcastic, but it seems to me that this concept can't be that hard to grasp.

IF you can't get it, can you be trusted on a chairlift to dismount safely? And do you have the common sense needed as newbie to be on a slope with planks strapped to your feet so you can slide down?

Most likely not.... But then again a lot of very intelligent folks don't have much common sense either

Luckily I don't fit into either of the aforementioned categories :roflmao::roflmao:
 

Kneale Brownson

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It's still not clear to me what the inside ski decides according to JF, or anyone else using this terminology.
The outside ski is the platform ski, okay I get that.
But what does the inside ski decide? Who can enlighten me?

The degree to which the inside ski is tipped toward the little toe edge (the outside edge, you know:roflmao:), the more the outside ski, your platform ski, can tip onto its big toe (inside) edge.
 

markojp

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Sort of the heart of the trainwreck... we can't see facial expressions and don't know each other well enough to know what/who to take seriously or not. Just don't call me Shirley.
 

Tricia

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OK, most if not ALL of my posts in this thread have been intended to be humorous and/or sarcastic, but it seems to me that this concept can't be that hard to grasp.

IF you can't get it, can you be trusted on a chairlift to dismount safely? And do you have the common sense needed as newbie to be on a slope with planks strapped to your feet so you can slide down?

Most likely not.... But then again a lot of very intelligent folks don't have much common sense either

Luckily I don't fit into either of the aforementioned categories :roflmao::roflmao:
Seriously? I think a bigger understanding of topics like Inside/Outside ski are things that come as you make progress.
Heck, @fatbob is the member who brought this up and he seems to get down the hill pretty darn well. Also, he can get on and off the chairlift unassisted.

I believe @Chris Geib had an image that clearly described the Inside/Outside, but I'm not sure if I'm thinking of something else. :huh:
 

Started at 53

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@Tricia

Oh I agree that this needs to be understood, as a very new skier I got it quickly. Understanding the concept might be easier that applying the concept.

It just seems pretty simple, hence my making fun along the way
 

Tricia

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@Tricia

Oh I agree that this needs to be understood, as a very new skier I got it quickly. Understanding the concept might be easier that applying the concept.

It just seems pretty simple, hence my making fun along the way
Which is why you and I are going to get along juuuuuuust fine. :margarita:
 

James

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Just summarizing...

Inside/outside ski
Uphill/downhill ski
Left/right ski
Right/other right ski
Right/wrong ski
Mountain/valley ski
Right/left footer
Stance/free foot
Rider/decider ski
Big toe/little toe side
Smart/dumb ski

I think we need a thesaurus for ski terms.
How would you describe the entry in your thesaurus for those words?

(I completely rephrased that to be...less argumentative)

One doesn't need a dictionary for inside/outside. How inside/outside relates to a turn is a different matter and can be shown quite easily. If that doesn't make sense you try something else.

In the end, lots of terms might have to be used and even something odd might work for someone. Like "decider". That's what @markojp is getting at.

In general, those who teach skiing have come to see inside/outside as much less confusing to people, and actually beneficial as it relates to the turn itself. Not the terrain.

Simple-
Left tip left to go left.

That only deals with the inside ski. The body will figure out the outside ski.

It's still not clear to me what the inside ski decides according to JF, or anyone else using this terminology.
The outside ski is the platform ski, okay I get that.
But what does the inside ski decide? Who can enlighten me?
Well not "terminology" but concept.

If you follow the somple phrase above, left tip left to go left, the inside ski determines where to go.

If you only focus on the ouside ski, you will end up a-framed and possibly worse, blocked by the inside ski. The most important thing is to clear the inside ski to allow one to move in that direction. Failire to do that will result in stems, steps, rotary push off, whole body rotary moves etc., to start the new turn.

Possibly we could argue this, but the most important thing in skiing is the release and commitment to the new turn. (Or commitment downhill) Those are also the two things most humans naturally do not want to do. As a result they develop all the techniques above to compensate because you have to do something to go downhill.

So, which ski is involved in release, outside or inside?

Well... technically at the moment, it's the outside ski. However, as soon as it's released, and the new turn starts, it's the inside ski. Since you're done with the old turn, we could just say it's the inside ski. Being more precise, it's the "new inside/old outside" ski. But that's complicated and possibly confusing. So we could just say "new inside" since what matters is what's ahead not what's past and done with. To make that simpler, we could just say "inside".

(Note how "left tip left to go left" bypasses all that terminolgy. Yes it's guiding the left tip to the left, but the phrase can also be used for tipping the left ski to the left as well)

The interesting thing, the more you tip the inside ski to the little toe side, the more edge angle you'll get on the outside ski.

One thing that can help with all this is thinking of "a turn" from fall line to fall line. That way the transition is in the middle and is actually part of a turn. The other way, where turns are kind of C's welded together almost ignores the most important part- the transition.
 

mdf

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The degree to which the inside ski is tipped toward the little toe edge (the outside edge, you know:roflmao:), the more the outside ski, your platform ski, can tip onto its big toe (inside) edge.
I think the point of the "decider" term is that when you concentrate on tipping the inside ski, the other ski "automagicly" does the right thing without thinking about it.

This is at an intermediate breakthrough level. ... of course you eventually pay attention again for refinement.
 

Art of Skiing

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I guess we disagree on this one.

Imo the outside ski is deciding for edge angle since that is your platform. The inside ski follows the outside ski once you tip the outside ski enough. All world class skiers have a slight a-frame when there is some horizontal separation. Only when the legs get glued together the a-frame disappears. World class skiers first tip the outside ski and the inside ski follows and not the other way around.

Imo the inside ski only decides how much shin pressure your are able to apply on the outside ski.
 

Tricia

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Is that a Margherita emoji?
Yes it is. If you haven't explored our emoji's you may like the après ski options.:flask:
 

JESinstr

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It's still not clear to me what the inside ski decides according to JF, or anyone else using this terminology.
The outside ski is the platform ski, okay I get that.
But what does the inside ski decide? Who can enlighten me?
In addition to decider, JF has also said, "Edging happens as a result of the inside LEG getting shorter"
If you are in the midst of a medium to large radius carved turn (committed to building circular force) and you focus on actively shortening your inside leg, the impact on the outside is substantial. I will be come a "WOW" moment for those not familiar.
 

James

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In addition to decider, JF has also said, "Edging happens as a result of the inside LEG getting shorter"
If you are in the midst of a medium to large radius carved turn (committed to building circular force) and you focus on actively shortening your inside leg, the impact on the outside is substantial. I will be come a "WOW" moment for those not familiar.
This is only true if one is balanced on the outside ski. For those who lean in and weight the inside ski, shortening the inside leg will be problematic at best and terrifying at worst.
 

Mike King

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"The inside ski is the decider and the outside ski is the rider..."

Jim Schanzenbaker, two time PSIA alpine demo team, taught me what he calls a "pull" turn. The concept is that you steer the turn by pulling from the inside leg. That is, the inside femur actively pulls the turn -- you are actively externally rotating the inside femur while shortening the inside leg and internally rotating the outside femur while extending the outside leg. The focus, however, is on the inside leg -- if you focus on the inside leg, the outside follows.

Mike
 

Art of Skiing

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In addition to decider, JF has also said, "Edging happens as a result of the inside LEG getting shorter"
If you are in the midst of a medium to large radius carved turn (committed to building circular force) and you focus on actively shortening your inside leg, the impact on the outside is substantial. I will be come a "WOW" moment for those not familiar.

I disagree. Imo when you are edging due to inside leg flexion it means there is too much weight on the inside ski. If your weight is on the outside ski however and you shorten the inside leg, but do not tip the outside leg all you will do is lift the inside leg from the ground...

How do we explain the picture I added?
I see an a-frame, yet the inside leg is bent more than 90 degrees. If I look at JF however, he can ski with much bigger edge angle than Hirscher is showcasing in this picture, yet JF his inside leg never bends as much as Hirscher is showing here. How come?
 

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fatbob

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One thing that can help with all this is thinking of "a turn" from fall line to fall line. That way the transition is in the middle and is actually part of a turn. The other way, where turns are kind of C's welded together almost ignores the most important part- the transition.

Well that kinda nails it for me - to the extent I actually think about turns while skiing it is apex to apex at least if not fall-line to fall-line ( whole new debate about the difference).
 

Mike King

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I disagree. Imo when you are edging due to inside leg flexion it means there is too much weight on the inside ski. If your weight is on the outside ski however and you shorten the inside leg, but do not tip the outside leg all you will do is lift the inside leg from the ground...

How do we explain the picture I added?
I see an a-frame, yet the inside leg is bent more than 90 degrees. If I look at JF however, he can ski with much bigger edge angle than Hirscher is showcasing in this picture, yet JF his inside leg never bends as much as Hirscher is showing here. How come?
Mikaela doesn't ski with an A-frame.

Mikaela Shiffrin • Squaw Valley Slalom Win • 11.03.2017
 

Art of Skiing

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Depends on your definition of a-frame. In this case what I mean by a-frame is definitely not how you would usually coin the term a-frame. What I am referring to however is that her outside ski will always be tipped on edge more than here inside ski. This will only disappear when her legs will touch and even then the edges will not be tipped evenly 100 percent.

What I just stated above would make no sense at all if the inside ski would actually decide the amount of angle one would make, yet if you go through her run frame by frame you will definitely see the outside ski being tipped more than the inside ski a vast majority of the time.

Another thing that makes no sense to me is this. We all agree upon the outside ski being the platform ski right? If you are actually standing on your outside ski, how can the inside ski decide the amount of angle? When you are standing on the ground and you lift one leg off the ground, how can the leg that just lifted get your closer to the ground? You can only tip a ski when there is a platform to tip it from. Saying the inside ski is deciding for angles implies there needs to be a lot of weight on that inside ski...
 
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