Inside / outside ski

[fatbob]

I think there is also a touch of "my instructor/guru/friend who is a very good skier said this" and struggling to reconcile that with what some faceless person is now saying on tinterweb. This doesn't take account of the fact that their previous advice may have been tailored specifically to an issue they were having and not be a universal truth or of course vice versa.

I think there is definitely a problem with some pros assuming that people who get confused between the words inclination and angulation or don't really understand what counter means aren't good skiers. That isn't necessarily the case you don't need any of those words to be a good skier just like I don't need the word cadence to ride a bike.

To be a bit self confessional , and I'm not a geometric doofus even if I dropped the theoretical physics after 1 year at University, I find it really hard to follow discussions about inside and outside ski, because they change during a turn. What is wrong with left and right as these are constants for a skier and define the turn you are discussing as a left or right turn?

Edit: This thread was brought from the Trainwreck thread to create a new thread.

 

[Josh Matta]

To be a bit self confessional , and I'm not a geometric doofus even if I dropped the theoretical physics after 1 year at University, I find it really hard to follow discussions about inside and outside ski, because they change during a turn. What is wrong with left and right as these are constants for a skier and define the turn you are discussing as a left or right turn?

not sure if you are intentionally trolling....

but inside and outside ski do not change during a one turn. Uphill and Downhill for sure change during a turn. saying balance on your outside ski is a ton easier, than saying when you turn right you balance on your left ski, and when you turn left you balance on right ski. With the first sentence you describe a rule of thumb for any turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Josh is right. Instructors run into this dilemma all the time.

--Using "left and right" is riddled with problems. Lots of people get left and right mixed up in daily life. Lots of people. "Weight the right ski to go left" is totally confusing to some folks; they can't think of both at the same time. Of course some people can keep that straight. I never use it in teaching though, because I keep having to say "the other right."

--Using "uphill and downhill" works if you are only talking about the bottom half of a turn. Most skiers can keep straight which way is downhill because it can be seen - you can point to it (although I have encountered beginner adults who have difficulty with this concept). Since many people cut off the tops of their turns, and since most people understand "uphill and downhill" so easily, those terms get a ton of use. But when you are talking about skiing with round turns that have a top that is shaped by the skier, using "uphill and downhill" becomes a problem. Here's why. The left ski is uphill at start of a right turn and the right ski is uphill at end of that same right turn. Now that's really really confusing; which foot is uphill switches at the fall line right smack in the middle of the turn.

--Using "outside and inside" works when talking about round turns that have a top half - in C-shaped turns. Describing what "outside and inside" refer to makes the most sense when someone is standing there on snow walking through a round turn. The outside foot or ski is the one that takes the outside path when you walk through the turn, or when you draw on snow the two lines your feet follow. With some practice, a skier new to these terms can tap the outside boot through a series of low-pitch turns at a slow pace, tap tap tap. Doing this pinpoints when the new turn starts. because it's when the skier switches to tapping the other boot. After doing this, that skier can tap the inside boot, then move on to tapping the inside boot through a series of linked turns. This little exercise is particularly helpful when introducing people to the role of the inside ski/foot/leg in shaping turns.

 

[fatbob]

not sure if you are intentionally trolling....

QED - why do discussions turn into a train wreck ...a pro jumps in and from the off passively aggressively accuses a punter of trolling because their language isn't precise

But you illustrate the problem - I'm thinking of my turn starting within the previous turn - you assume that I'm talking about a turn in isolation. Left and right work for me for clarity NOT uphill/downhill or inside/outside. That's the way my brain is wired. It matters very little to me that the instructor population thinks in general people don't understand left and right you have a communication problem with me because you insist on using your semantics with me. Hence noise hence train wreck.

 

[Josh Matta]

the thing is when talking about concentric circles there will always be an inside and outside. it not an opinion, its entirely objective. It not that I think or pother thing you do not understand left or right, but phasing everything for one direction when talking online would make the wording far more ponderous than it already is.


The thing is am entirely willing to listen to varying opinions on things there can be opinions on. but on things that are just set in stone, they are not worth discussing over and over again.

I quite frankly hate the new influx of people, as they have tended to bring in baseless opinions, instead of actual well thought out objective reasoning on what is actually going on. fatbob none of this directed at you. Sorry for accusing you of trolling, but language that is just imprecise enough can be a perfect trolling device....I would know.

 

[Tricia]

I moved these posts from the Trainwreck thread.
@Josh Matta I can assure you, having skied with @fatbob several times, he's not trolling.

 

[François Pugh]

Inside ski = the ski that would be on the inside of the circle traced by your skis if you continued the turn all the way around a circle.
Outside ski = the other ski.

 

[4ster]

You've got to know your audience. If you don't then you need to take time to find common ground with the language you use.

In the old days when it was mostly European instructors teaching with English as a second language, they often spoke of the Mountain & Valley ski. This eventually became uphill & downhill ski. During that time most things were taught from a traverse, so it sorta made sense.

As we evolved into rounder linked turns, inside & outside ski have become more of the accepted norm & to me makes much more sense as long as the student has the same understanding. Francois has a pretty good definition in the previous post.

With racers who have been trained to direct pressure & balance to the outside ski (left to go right, right to go left) from day one, it is simply a "right footed turn or a left footed turn". Even easier, "right footer or left footer".

All depends on who you are dealing with & their level of understanding. It is up to the Instructor/Coach to assess that level.

 

[Zentune]

^^^^When racing we always said "right booter/left booter" to indicate which was carrying the most load....sometimes I stil use that, maybe less confusing than inside/outside for some it seems. But as LF says, some people have difficulty with left and right, so there is that...

zenny

 

[LiquidFeet]

Fatbob, I did not intend my post upthread about terms to be instructional for you. Given your post history it is clear you are a strong skier.

When I posted I was assuming there might be lots of readers of this thread now and into the future who wonder about the terms and why it makes a difference to anybody. Sorry if I insulted you; it was definitely not my intention.

 

[KingGrump]

When I first started a while back (a long while), it was uphill and downhill skis. Then it became outside and inside skis around the turn of the century. Makes senses to me as it was happening.

I'm not a instructor, just a hack who had tons of lessons and also I free ski with bunch of instructors so I fully understand the tech talk and where they coming from.

OTOH, both Mamie and her sisters are really good skier but they have difficulties with their left and right. I've used the "the other right" phrase many times in the past. Most of the times they just look at me like I have two heads. (Oh, I forgot, I do ) It's in their DNA, so I stop trying to change/fix them. Whatever works for them is OK with me. We are all having fun and it keeps the peace. I like peace.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Remember fatbob, right is on the other side of the road for you in the U.K....

 

[Started at 53]

Remember fatbob, right is on the other side of the road for you in the U.K....

Did you really go there?

 

[Art of Skiing]

If you are not allowed to train wreck a thread there is always the option of car wrecking it.

 

[Started at 53]

If you are not allowed to train wreck a thread there is always the option of car wrecking it.

You can only wreck a car in the UK if you get in the right side

 

[ScotsSkier]

You can only wreck a car in the UK if you get in the right side

Would that be inside or outside?

 

[fatbob]

Remember fatbob, right is on the other side of the road for you in the U.K....

AKA the fast lane.

Everyone else - no offence taken. Rather than create a new train wreck I was just trying to illustrate how common pro terminology doesn't necessarily work easily with the audience. Big/little toe of left/ right foot works just fine in words to me anything else and I have an extra stage to process what anyone is talking about. So over a thread with people talking over each other that's a lot of extra processing. So I avoid tech threads. Others might react more aggressively hence the problem.

 

[fatbob]

I moved these posts from the Trainwreck thread.
@Josh Matta I can assure you, having skied with @fatbob several times, he's not trolling.

This is true I really do find my right ski inside my left sometimes when more orthodox skiing would maintain that right should stay right and left should stay left

 

[Started at 53]

Would that be inside or outside?

Inside=the driver doing the wrecking

Outside=stuff getting hit by said driver

 

[Kneale Brownson]

When I started with PSIA in 1969, all turn descriptions began from a traverse position. All turn demos started from a traverse and ended with a traverse. There was no turn linking except as provided by traversing. I can remember slopes from the 40s and 50s where they were cris-crossed by long "moguls" that extended for multiple ski lengths. That all, as 4ster noted, contributed to talking about turns in terms of what one did with the uphill and downhill skis. It might be easier to understand inside and outside if you view turning as going from one fall line to another.