Inside leg

[JKinBC-NC]

IMO This is philosophical and conditional.
On one hand, an overactive inside in terms of tipping and/or toppling into the new turn is a shortcut that is dependent on force generation potential and the skill level and confidence of the skier. Nothing wrong with that.

But to advocate such a movement pattern as the fundamental way to initiate a turn has its shortfalls.
Any movement to the inside without the needed technique and velocity to create centripetal force is inviting a potential face plant. I challenge anyone to tell me that moving inside, be it ankle, knee or upper body, while under the influence of gravity, will result in pressure being directed toward the outside ski.

These are the issues that get raised when we fail to contemplate that skiing involves various forces with different origins and varying intensities.

What are the specific movements to which you are referring when you say "overactive inside in terms of tipping.." and "moving inside"?

 

[HardDaysNight]

These are the issues that get raised when we fail to contemplate that skiing involves various forces with different origins and varying intensities.

Who do you imagine fails to contemplate this? Wouldn’t actual physical reality rectify such neglect rather roughly?

 

[JESinstr]

What are the specific movements to which you are referring when you say "overactive inside in terms of tipping.." and "moving inside"?

All I am saying is that I do not believe that the inside leg should take an active role in leading the outside. That would be "overactive" in my book. IMO the inside leg plays more of an enablement role. Deb Armstrong's Video above does a good job addressing the role of the inside leg above.

 

[JESinstr]

Who do you imagine fails to contemplate this? Wouldn’t actual physical reality rectify such neglect rather roughly?

LOL HDN! Again the racer mentality and the instructor mentality collide! In your world you are right of course. But in the beginner world, you would be surprised how many instructors tell their wedge students to flatten the new inside ski to initiate their first turn. Under low speed and gravity, most newbies will lean laterally to the inside in an attempt to accomplish the directed task. No catastrophic result, just bad fundamentals.

 

[slowrider]

I challenge anyone to tell me that moving inside, be it ankle, knee or upper body, while under the influence of gravity, will result in pressure being directed toward the outside ski.


Directing pressure to the outside ski are different movements than engaging inside ski movements.

 

[Coach13]

I challenge anyone to tell me that moving inside, be it ankle, knee or upper body, while under the influence of gravity, will result in pressure being directed toward the outside ski.


Directing pressure to the outside ski are different movements than engaging inside ski movements.

Maybe not actively, but doesn’t every turn regardless of how it’s initiated allow pressure build on the outside ski? Minus intentionally standing on the inside ski, that is.

 

[JKinBC-NC]

All I am saying is that I do not believe that the inside leg should take an active role in leading the outside. That would be "overactive" in my book. IMO the inside leg plays more of an enablement role. Deb Armstrong's Video above does a good job addressing the role of the inside leg above.

Following the instruction given in that video is just going to reinforce the problems exhibited by most skiers and instructors. The demonstration at 6:56 of the video is just further evidence supporting the ineffectiveness of the instruction. Those turns are not in balance (The skier is depending on the inside leg as an outrigger so as not to fall over. See screen capture below.) and display so many of the problems that have been ingrained deeply in most skiers. As a first step, the demonstrator would benefit from learning to tip (inversion) the foot of the soon-to-be inside ski (old outside ski at the end of a turn) to the little toe edge before allowing the new outside ski to tip to it's big toe edge.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

It sounds to me that the confusion is about inside/outside ski. As soon as you tip the outside ski towards the little toe ... doesn't it become the inside ski?

 

[JKinBC-NC]

The demonstrator is not tipping to the little toe edge of the outside ski before tipping to the big toe edge of the inside ski. Instead, the skier is on both inside edges at transition, i.e., a wedge entry.

 

[markojp]

I challenge anyone to tell me that moving inside, be it ankle, knee or upper body, while under the influence of gravity, will result in pressure being directed toward the outside ski.


Directing pressure to the outside ski are different movements than engaging inside ski movements.

I rarely post in these threads be cause it's nearly pointless... loads of willful misunderstanding and rhetorical mayhem, but... keeping it simple, flattening or 'tipping' the new inside ski above the fall line in no way precludes getting to the outside ski unless it is poorly coached. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Mike King]

JF Beaulieu might know how to ski: “The inside ski is the decider, the outside ski is the rider.”

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Deb's video seems pretty innocent. I can't even imagine what one could disagree with there. As for her skiing, well, nobody is immune to criticism, but somehow that skiing was good enough to win the Olympics and get on the National Demo Team.

 

[Coach13]

Deb's video seems pretty innocent. I can't even imagine what one could disagree with there. As for her skiing, well, nobody is immune to criticism, but somehow that skiing was good enough to win the Olympics and get on the National Demo Team.

Yep, -she’s in small company in terms of accomplishments!.

I’m sure if she keeps working hard, she’ll improve at some point. lol

 

[JKinBC-NC]

Deb's video seems pretty innocent. I can't even imagine what one could disagree with there. As for her skiing, well, nobody is immune to criticism, but somehow that skiing was good enough to win the Olympics and get on the National Demo Team.

I'm aware of her resume. Past accomplishments are great. While past performance can be a predictor of future performance, current performance is the best indicator of current performance. I was commenting on the demonstration presented in the video.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

LOL
So do you actually disagree with the content of the video, or do you just want to awe us with your impressive movement analysis skills?

 

[JESinstr]

Following the instruction given in that video is just going to reinforce the problems exhibited by most skiers and instructors. The demonstration at 6:56 of the video is just further evidence supporting the ineffectiveness of the instruction. Those turns are not in balance (The skier is depending on the inside leg as an outrigger so as not to fall over. See screen capture below.) and display so many of the problems that have been ingrained deeply in most skiers. As a first step, the demonstrator would benefit from learning to tip (inversion) the foot of the soon-to-be inside ski (old outside ski at the end of a turn) to the little toe edge before allowing the new outside ski to tip to it's big toe edge.

Taking Screen shots of a fluid process is not necessarily a good way to try and prove a point.

IMO, the inside ski plays a minor role in the development of a carved turn when it comes to edge to surface contact but plays a major role in alignment and movement patterns ergo JF's Decider/Rider comment.

I bring back "ole faithful" to prove my point.

Watch Bridget Currier (1st skier). Study the alignment movements of her inside leg and foot as the turn develops. The fact that the inside ski is in the air speaks volumes to the inside's effect on outside performance.
To me this is one of the powerful images I take away from the video and is what Armstrong talks about beginning at 2:34 in her vid.

Yes Deb could have been a bit more disciplined in the alignment and movement patterns of her inside leg in that segment but outrigger???? Don't be ridiculous.

 

[JKinBC-NC]

LOL

Could you elaborate on what you find humorous?

So do you actually disagree with the content of the video

Yes and no. I agree with the instruction that we should not to rotate nor lean in.
I somewhat agree with this statement from the video "...in many respects it[the inside leg] leads the tipping of the outside ski". However, rather than focussing on tippng the inside leg, one should focus on tipping the foot of the old-outside-ski/soon-to-be-inside-ski to it's little toe edge.

I disagree with the focus on tipping both legs simultaneously during the presented side slip drills. Again, the focus should be on the feet, and the tipping should be to the little toe edge first (the uphill ski, in the case of the sideslip drill) rather than simultaneously tipping both feet.

I agree with the statement: "We have to be in balance at the transition. We have to align ourselves and have all of the proper movements happening at the transition of our turn so that we can access the top of our turn.".

The instruction to keep back the inside foot is, of course, spot on. But then, unfortunately, we are told that we don't have to pull the foot back. The only way to keep the foot back is to focus on pulling it back. The moment one gives up on pulling it back while in a turn or transition, the foot squirts forward.

or do you just want to awe us with your impressive movement analysis skills?

What do you mean by this part of your question? Do you use movement analysis to impress others? I was not aware that was the goal.
The demonstrated turns in the video were presumably meant to show us skiing that results when focussing on tipping the legs simultaneously. The demonstration shows turns with the inside leg being used as an outrigger to keep the skier from falling inside, and it shows transitions with both skis on their inside edges. Is this the goal?

 

[Scruffy]

If you watch more of Deb Armstrong's vids you'll notice a slight A-frame in her stance. A lot of women have this. I know a few female instructors that have it. I'm sure Deb, at her level, has seem the best boot fitters out there to align her. Don't let it take away from what she is teaching.

 

[JKinBC-NC]

Taking Screen shots of a fluid process is not necessarily a good way to try and prove a point.

IMO, the inside ski plays a minor role in the development of a carved turn when it comes to edge to surface contact but plays a major role in alignment and movement patterns ergo JF's Decider/Rider comment.

I bring back "ole faithful" to prove my point.

Watch Bridget Currier (1st skier). Study the alignment movements of her inside leg and foot as the turn develops. The fact that the inside ski is in the air speaks volumes to the inside's effect on outside performance.
To me this is one of the powerful images I take away from the video and is what Armstrong talks about beginning at 2:34 in her vid.

The 1st skier demonstrates excellent balance on the outside ski for much of the duration of the majority of the turns. To see a loss of balance, take a look at the turn at :30 in which the balance on the outside is lost just after transition into that turn, and the skier quickly puts the inside ski down at the top of the turn.

Yes Deb could have been a bit more disciplined in the alignment and movement patterns of her inside leg in that segment but outrigger???? Don't be ridiculous.

Yes, the inside ski is being used as an outrigger. Whether one is using a small amount or large amount of "outrigger" doesn't make it not an outrigger. Throughout much of each turn, if the demonstrator were to lift the inside ski off of the snow, we would see that she is not balanced.

 

[JKinBC-NC]

If you watch more of Deb Armstrong's vids you'll notice a slight A-frame in her stance. A lot of women have this. I know a few female instructors that have it. I'm sure Deb, at her level, has seem the best boot fitters out there to align her. Don't let it take away from what she is teaching.

Yes, I assume that anyone putting up instructional videos has sorted out and continues to tweak their alignment since ones alignment is usually constantly evolving.

She is not the only "demo" skier who demonstrates this sort of transition on both inside edges. Just take a look at recent Interski videos.