Mid-Atlantic Inside intel says Camelback PA is being purchased by KSL

[Sibhusky]

If nothing's changed in the years since I skied there, there can be 10-12,000 on 150 acres on a Saturday.

 

[socalgal]

If nothing's changed in the years since I skied there, there can be 10-12,000 on 150 acres on a Saturday.

 

[Sibhusky]

Just found this in a 2013 article:

Camelback attracts approximately 900,000 skier visits annually.

I don't really buy that, I think it includes their Camelbeach numbers in the summer. But I'm sure it's 400,000 or more.

We just set a new record here at Whitefish, 384,800... On 3000 acres. Our record high day is usually about 8000. (I haven't seen this year's number yet.) Given that Camelback is not a destination resort with significant midweek numbers because people are flying in and staying a week -- it's people coming on weekends -- just do some math. I can't even grasp how one skis there. But it's clear why a conglomerate would think it'll draw people to the other resorts in their portfolio.

Found an article about this season for Camelback, 9,000 for Presidents Day. I'm sure Christmas week was higher yet.

Edit: Found another article, 2015:

It has a ski hill that does 400,000 skier visits [annually], and it does have the Camelback Beach outdoor, public-admission water park in the summer that attracts another 400,000 people.

 

[4aprice]

How much is a Camelback pass right now? Never been there, but I assume based on the stats I've seen and the geography that its closest analog on the Ikon pass would be Snowshoe, which is currently unlimited skiing on the base pass. If it's got huge population centers to draw from, though, they might want to limit it a bit.

Camelback Super Pass (the one the wife and I get) is $600.00. It includes the 1st Tracks program (7:30 am - 8:30 am weekends) which we use particularly on holiday weekends.

I hope they do make the unlimited part of the higher pass like Stratton. Still works out better for us then the Super Pass and Ikon Base Pass combo we had this past season.

Snowshoe is a bad comparison. It's in the middle of no where (no offense to any WV people). Camelback is 90 minutes from both NYC and Philly. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the amount of Long Islanders that frequent the place.

If nothing's changed in the years since I skied there, there can be 10-12,000 on 150 acres on a Saturday.

Statistics can be a little misleading. The amount of people there is spread out over the day and do not forget that they do have night skiing (something I personally don't do) which is very popular partly because its cheaper then the day session. The cars are usually piling in at the same time people like me are leaving. Get there and get out early one is usually fine and for what ever the reason real crowds and lines (really only on the 2 HSQ's) do not materialize till 10:30-11:00. Anyone who knows Camelback knows that you can have a ton of runs in by that time. The fixed grip back up lifts rarely have any waits even on the busiest weekends.

BTW the largest crowds I've seen there was around 14,000 (the stat cited to me) years ago. However that was before the hotel was built which took away a whole slew of parking. I don't believe they have the parking space to have a crowd that size now.

 

[Tricia]

Camelback Super Pass (the one the wife and I get) is $600.00. It includes the 1st Tracks program (7:30 am - 8:30 am weekends) which we use particularly on holiday weekends.

For $49 more you can get the IKON Base pass that includes skiing with blackout dates, with 5 days at partnered resorts.
If you ski during holidays, then you'd pay $349 more than you're paying now and get unlimited skiing with 7 days at the partnered resorts.
And, here's the best part, you can start using next year's pass now. And, the cherry on top of this dessert, we will be skiing until well past the 4th of July out here at Squaw and Mammoth.
From Mammoth's press release on February 13th.
(think about it, it was half way through February and they already had 11-16 FEET of snow for the month)
February has already delivered 11–16+ feet of snow. This latest storm is just getting started with 6–8 inches of fresh and multiple more feet in the forecast for the next few days. If you haven't heard the news, get stoked because we will be open for skiing and riding until at least the 4th of July! Mammoth has the deepest snowpack in the country right now and it's only getting deeper.
IKON details here

The cool thing about IKON is that they will let you buy the base pass now and upgrade later if you decide you want the full pass.
Also, if you do buy now before prices go up and (for some reason) the deal falls through, its not bad to have the IKON and plan a vacation.

 

[Noodler]

For $49 more you can get the IKON Base pass that includes skiing with blackout dates, with 5 days at partnered resorts.
If you ski during holidays, then you'd pay $349 more than you're paying now and get unlimited skiing with 7 days at the partnered resorts.
And, here's the best part, you can start using next year's pass now. And, the cherry on top of this dessert, we will be skiing until well past the 4th of July out here at Squaw and Mammoth.
From Mammoth's press release on February 13th.
(think about it, it was half way through February and they already had 11-16 FEET of snow for the month)
February has already delivered 11–16+ feet of snow. This latest storm is just getting started with 6–8 inches of fresh and multiple more feet in the forecast for the next few days. If you haven't heard the news, get stoked because we will be open for skiing and riding until at least the 4th of July! Mammoth has the deepest snowpack in the country right now and it's only getting deeper.
IKON details here

The cool thing about IKON is that they will let you buy the base pass now and upgrade later if you decide you want the full pass.
Also, if you do buy now before prices go up and (for some reason) the deal falls through, its not bad to have the IKON and plan a vacation.

I know this is the Camelback thread, but this post gets me thinking about a super late season trip to Mammoth. I've never skied there and it's on my bucket list. We need a new thread to see if we can drum up a Summer gathering for the current and new Ikon pass holders.

 

[Tricia]

I know this is the Camelback thread, but this post gets me thinking about a super late season trip to Mammoth. I've never skied there and it's on my bucket list. We need a new thread to see if we can drum up a Summer gathering for the current and new Ikon pass holders.

Way ahead of you man. We've been percolating on that idea.
Back in 2011 we had a Father's Day at Mammoth since we already had Mother's day at A-Bay

 

[Tricia]

So a little speculation. Camelback goes on Ikon the way Stratton is. Base pass 5 days, the higher pass gets you unlimited.

Again, this is inside intel on the purchase, but our source is very good and we are confident that it will go through.
It is my understanding that the resorts that are actually purchased by KSL are IKON pass as in, the IKON pass is their pass option, and that the "affiliated" resorts are the ones with limited days.
I could be wrong. It doesn't happen often but it does happen.

 

[socalgal]

Way ahead of you man. We've been percolating on that idea.
Back in 2011 we had a Father's Day at Mammoth since we already had Mother's day at A-Bay

Ooohh! Sounds like fun and we were already planning on going up that weekend!

 

[Sibhusky]

BTW the largest crowds I've seen there was around 14,000 (the stat cited to me) years ago. However that was before the hotel was built which took away a whole slew of parking. I don't believe they have the parking space to have a crowd that size now

When I saw that little 9000 number, I wondered if parking had been lost. I remember two occasions where cars were backed up the entire route back to the interstate. People couldn't exit and it was creating issues on the highway. They closed down the exit and forced people to go to the next one and find their way back.

It's nice they given that "first tracks" capability to you. I used to try to be first chair at 7:30 and was quite pissed when they changed first chair to 8:00, because I lost a huge chunk of vertical that way. The goal was always to yo-yo as much as possible by ten. Have lunch at 11:15, come out at noon to take advantage of the lunch lull, then clear out before two. Season pass holder, 1987-2003.

 

[Sibhusky]

Get there and get out early one is usually fine and for what ever the reason real crowds and lines (really only on the 2 HSQ's) do not materialize till 10:30-11:00. Anyone who knows Camelback knows that you can have a ton of runs in by that time. The fixed grip back up lifts rarely have any waits even on the busiest weekends

Granted, but my average day (yes, I have all these stats) was 15,246 feet there, with a record day of 34,060. My average here (with fewer hours of opening each day, it's only 9-4) is 18,002 (declining as I age--now in my late 60's), with a record day of 51,901. No matter how well you work the lifts, you are losing ski time due to the crowds. And I ride a lot of slow lifts here, because that's where the good snow is.

 

[4aprice]

For $49 more you can get the IKON Base pass that includes skiing with blackout dates, with 5 days at partnered resorts.
If you ski during holidays, then you'd pay $349 more than you're paying now and get unlimited skiing with 7 days at the partnered resorts.
And, here's the best part, you can start using next year's pass now. And, the cherry on top of this dessert, we will be skiing until well past the 4th of July out here at Squaw and Mammoth.
From Mammoth's press release on February 13th.
(think about it, it was half way through February and they already had 11-16 FEET of snow for the month)
February has already delivered 11–16+ feet of snow. This latest storm is just getting started with 6–8 inches of fresh and multiple more feet in the forecast for the next few days. If you haven't heard the news, get stoked because we will be open for skiing and riding until at least the 4th of July! Mammoth has the deepest snowpack in the country right now and it's only getting deeper.
IKON details here

The cool thing about IKON is that they will let you buy the base pass now and upgrade later if you decide you want the full pass.
Also, if you do buy now before prices go up and (for some reason) the deal falls through, its not bad to have the IKON and plan a vacation.

Well it would only be $19 more for me as I currently have the Ikon Base pass along with the CBK Pass but I get what your saying. Still the 900 or 950 for the higher level pass would still save me over the Super Pass and Ikon Base I have this year at 1200. I will renew my Ikon base then work on getting any needed upgrades later i it comes through. In the past we didn't have to buy the Camelback Pass till November. I will say that I do want to be able to access CBK during any holiday period as I'm not forced to travel then (no school aged children anymore) so we don't.

Would love to get out to Mammoth at some point.

 

[HardDaysNight]

This must be one of those top-secret moves that @Muleski is always chuntering on about, intended to differentiate Alterra from the competition. Genius: buy a feeder resort in a high population metro area, flog the punters your season pass and attract them to your pricey destination resorts. I’m just surprised Vail Resorts didn’t think of it first

 

[4aprice]

It's nice they given that "first tracks" capability to you. I used to try to be first chair at 7:30 and was quite pissed when they changed first chair to 8:00, because I lost a huge chunk of vertical that way. The goal was always to yo-yo as much as possible by ten. Have lunch at 11:15, come out at noon to take advantage of the lunch lull, then clear out before two. Season pass holder, 1987-2003.

Even though you have been gone or a while you basically have it pegged. Yo-yo till 11:30, grab some lunch, then decide if we to hit it some more or hit the bar. Some weekends surprise you, in that you go expecting it to be a zoo and its not. Other times its the opposite. I'm just glad its only 45 min from home and I can come and go as I please. It's also nice get up there on some weekday afternoons when there is nobody there.

 

[Philpug]

I’m just surprised Vail Resorts didn’t think of it first

I am more surprised it has taken them this long. I have been asking the question for years, why are they ignoring the mid Atlantic with the amount of skiers in NY/NJ and PA. Again, I am hearing rumors about Blue and that is is for sale, this IMHO pushes Vail to have to step up a bit. IMHO because of the amount of lodging at Camelback, that makes it the prize. The resort that had a good amount of lodging and IMHO is the little financial jewel is Bear Creek...they have a ton of beds and a good amount of skiers days that will make them ripe for purchase.

 

[Jilly]

One reason a local friend of mine bought the Ikon, was he was headed to JH. Oh gee, he can get Tremblant too on the same pass.

So if, they are thinking feeder resorts......Quebec, Ontario and Northeastern US have a lot!!

 

[Marker]

I am more surprised it has taken them this long. I have been asking the question for years, why are they ignoring the mid Atlantic with the amount of skiers in NY/NJ and PA. Again, I am hearing rumors about Blue and that is is for sale, this IMHO pushes Vail to have to step up a bit. IMHO because of the amount of lodging at Camelback, that makes it the prize. The resort that had a good amount of lodging and IMHO is the little financial jewel is Bear Creek...they have a ton of beds and a good amount of skiers days that will make them ripe for purchase.

It's water under the bridge, but if they had made these moves a few years ago, I might not have ended up at Killington. Since I prefer Blue, I guess I'd have been looking at Epic resorts up north.

 

[Noodler]

I am more surprised it has taken them this long. I have been asking the question for years, why are they ignoring the mid Atlantic with the amount of skiers in NY/NJ and PA. Again, I am hearing rumors about Blue and that is is for sale, this IMHO pushes Vail to have to step up a bit. IMHO because of the amount of lodging at Camelback, that makes it the prize. The resort that had a good amount of lodging and IMHO is the little financial jewel is Bear Creek...they have a ton of beds and a good amount of skiers days that will make them ripe for purchase.

I assume the Bear Creek you're talking about was once called Doe Mountain. That's the mountain I learned to ski on. I looked it up a while back and was quite surprised to see what it has grown into (and the amount of diversification of the services/entertainment they now provide). I'd love to go back to that one too just for the fun of it.

 

[New2]

Again, this is inside intel on the purchase, but our source is very good and we are confident that it will go through.
It is my understanding that the resorts that are actually purchased by KSL are IKON pass as in, the IKON pass is their pass option, and that the "affiliated" resorts are the ones with limited days.
I could be wrong. It doesn't happen often but it does happen.

KSL on its own doesn't own/hasn't purchased any ski properties since IKON's been out, right, so there's no prior history to guess? They transferred ownership of Squaw Valley & Alpine Meadows to Alterra when it was formed (and before it had a name). The closest parallel would seem to be the resorts owned by Alterra's other co-owner, the Aspen areas, which have limited days on Ikon (though admittedly Camelback and Aspen are not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison).

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the decision-makers behind a purchase like this for Alterra and KSL end up being the exact same people, so it could well be that this intel is 100% accurate but the purchase will be in the name of "Alterra," rather than "KSL." In which case the assumption that Camelback would be unlimited on Ikon seems likely: all the resorts owned by Alterra except Deer Valley are unlimited on the Ikon Pass.

 

[jdm00]

Yeah, unless KSL is going to want to own it differently, I'd imagine it would end up under the Alterra banner. Are there any KSL properties not in the Alterra venture? DV? And even if not, I would imagine it gets the Ikon treatment. No doubt it draws big crowds because of its location--and no disrespect to Camelback, because I've never been--but if it's not the type of destination resort to draw skiers from across the country, I'd imagine that being on unlimited Ikon access shouldn't affect the numbers too greatly.

But there will probably be some instant investment, too.