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Input wanted - wool outerwear- thinking of making the move this year

Freddo Bumps

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I’ve never found the promise of waterproof/ breathable/versatile to be particularly well fulfilled. I’ve had Gore-Tex, Neoschell (probably my favorite), and proprietary fabrics/coatings. Particularly on the breathability front, I’m usually quite disappointed.

I started thinking about wool after a just-before-Covid trip to Aspen put me on Gorsuch’s email list (demoed the Stockli AR - nice!). They carry Alps & Meters, which is pulling together some nice styles that utilize natural fibers. I came close to pulling the trigger on a couple Alps & Meters items, but decided to do some research to see who else is doing wool ski outerwear. I came across WeatherWool, a small company about an hour away from me in NJ and read up on their website and watched a lot of video reviews. What I found is that wool might actually be what I’ve been after. I also found a company totally dedicated to top quality, but largely geared toward the outdoorsman market. They have done a ski jacket in the past under the advisement of a longtime ski instructor/skinner/outdoorsman out of VT (Sugarbush, I think). With a remarkable product guarantee, I can’t, at this point, see why I wouldn’t move forward.

I went to meet Ralph, Debby, and Alex of WeatherWool yesterday. They couldn’t have been nicer, and they love to talk wool! I gathered that they started the company 11 years ago because Ralph, an outdoorsman, couldn’t find products that satisfied his needs/interests - particularly in softness and durability (liners are typically used with wool because of harshness, but liners negatively impact performance). So, they went to work to make the best wool money can buy. I haven’t internalized enough about the superiority of their wool specifically or the superiority of wool in general, but, in talking to them, I could tell that they are very particular and uncompromising about the quality of their product. In fact, they have very little inventory right now because they have had to re-establish supply relationships after their primary supplier was bought out and moved out of the country. That’s bad for them, but hopefully good for me, as they expressed willingness to add design features when they are producing their SkiJac again.

While at their place, I was able to try on their Anorak (in a size a bit small for me). I’m a fan so far! One of my concerns about wool going in relates to weight. There’s no doubt wool is heavier than most synthetic outwear on the market, but I found the Anorak extremely comfortable to wear, even at yesterday’s 75* temps. I left it on for a lot of our conversation and really enjoyed wearing it. It was soft (not woven Merino sweater soft), supple enough, and clearly quite durable. I wear wool socks year round, so I know wool breathes well, but I liked that the weight of the Anorak didn’t bother me at all. They do make two weights - full and medium - and I will go with medium for a high-output activity like skiing.

I was pretty sure I’d try their product before I visited, but I still wanted to chat about a few things anyway. The biggest was color. I mentioned previously that their products have the most traction with the serious-outdoorsman market, and I think their colors reflect that. They do have black available, but I told them that I thought two shades of gray (light/medium and dark/charcoal) would reach more of the fashion-conscious market. As our conversation developed more focus on the ski market, I started to think more about features I’d like to see.

You’d help me and them by weighing in on a few things:

Wool
  • Do you have experience skiing in wool outerwear? Pluses/minuses? I project...
    • Durability will be vastly superior to any synthetic, with soft-shell fabrics being second.
    • Breathability will also be vastly superior
    • Weatherproofness (particularly water) is the area I want to focus my learning. Ralph speaks a lot about wool’s superior water management properties, but I’ve been so conditioned to think hard shell is the way to go that it’s hard to move from that thinking.
    • Weight could be a concern. Without yet wearing one of their products for a high-output activity, I’m optimistic.
    • I’m actually optimistic on all of these fronts given the folks who are using their products for other purposes, but skiing is a different animal.
    • https://weatherwool.com/pages/the-weatherwool-difference
Jacket Features
  • https://weatherwool.com/collections/jackets/products/ski-jacket
  • What’s critical to you? Here’s what I’d like to see or consider:
    • Napoleon chest pockets (at least one, two preferred). The Anorak has a version of these with a nice cell phone sleeve in the left pocket.
    • Forearm pocket for pass
    • Removable powder cuff
Pants Features
  • https://weatherwool.com/collections/wool-pants/products/full-weight-pants
  • Their current pants are not ski-specific. They come with two zippered and buttoned cargo pockets, two open slant pockets, and a right zippered rear pocket. They said that the existing pants can be ordered with cargo pockets, so maybe there’s room to influence design toward a ski-specific model.
  • What’s critical to you? Here’s what I’d like to see or consider:
    • Powder cuffs/internal gaiters
    • Two rear zippers pockets
    • Zippered slant pockets if opting for cargo pocket delete
    • Cut guards
    • Removable bib
Customization
  • We didn’t talk much about this, but I’d be willing to pay a bit extra for some customization in the following areas. What about you?
    • Color - within a degree of reason (maybe a palette of special order colors)
    • Pockets - location, type of closure
    • Features like powder cuffs and cut guards if no ski-specific product is developed
Wow, this got long; sorry for that. To be clear, I have no skin in the game whatsoever. I guess I’m just excited to try out a new direction, happy to have met cool folks who are operating on passion, and filled with questions. This is an open-minded community that’s also never short on opinions. Go!
 

neonorchid

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A ski shop guy by Sugarbush VT once told me he skis Mt Washington Tuckerman Ravine in wool outerwear, old school style, because in a fall on a steep icy hardpack slope the wool outerwear will help slow you down and bring you to a stop whereas synthetic hard shell outerwear will send you off like a rocket.
 

jmeb

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I've skied with a fair number of guides and members of SAR. Most of which don't have any clothing or gear sponsorship.

All of them use their gear as means of making a living. Most of them are skiing 100+ days a year. They have strong opinions about what works and what doesn't. They have more experience that is relevant to me (i.e. skiing in high mountain environments where your life depends on your gear) than someone making wool garments in NJ. Zero of them wear wool outerwear.

Personally -- I think hardshells are overblown for skiing in the intermountain West, but that is a very particular ski environment. I can imagine wearing a wool based outlayer in dry CO if it was near windproof. But I can't imagine it really had better durability than my decade old, hard-use, Patagonia softshell that still blocks wind completely, breathes fine and repels precip.

I can't imagine skiing in wool while it's raining in the PNW.
 

Analisa

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Durability is tricky, and way more complex than wool vs. synthetic. Wools are all staple fibers, meaning short pieces of shorn off wool are twisted together into yarn. The tensile strength of the yarn depends on how heavy it is and how tightly it's spun. Once the yarn is created, the overall fabric durability will also depend on whether the yarn is knitted (creating a looser, stretchier feel like a sweater) or woven (giving it the more rigid feel of wool suiting pieces). And the thickness of the knit or weave also impacts the durability.

These same factors also apply to synthetics, but synthetics have the added option of being a filament fiber or a staple fiber. Filament fibers are pumped out in continuous long strands like dental floss before being twisted togerher, vs short "hairs" being spun, and filament fibers make for added durability. And then there's added differences in durability depending on the type of synthetic (a micron of nylon is stronger than a micron of polyester). From an outerwear perspective, you can generally achieve a much better strength-to-weight ratios out of synthetics (like the 3.7 oz Patagonia Houdini trashbag style running jacket).

Breathability tends to be a trade-off with durability since looser knits and weaves allow more air through. So there are definitely thin, knit synthetic fabrics that are eons more breathable than a thick, tightly woven wool piece.

But I think the biggest difference between their wool pieces and traditional outerwear is in the waterproof membrane. That's really the killer for breathability in most hardshells. These wool pieces don't have a membrane, instead relying on the fact that wool can absorb 30% of its weight in water before it starts to feel wet, so it holds up well to light precip. To echo @jmeb's point, I'm in the PNW and a membrane is a non-negotiable for the heavy, wet snow we tend to get. For drier climates, there are tons of softshell options on the market without the membrane and made of really nice fabrics that are stretchy and lightweight, but use treated (for extra strength) nylons and advanced weave structures that are incredibly durable and weather resistant. It's the epitome of textile engineering. And it's hard for wool to match that strength-to-weight bar since the fact that it *has* to be staple fibers works against it.

Base layers are a different story. Wool naturally still insulates when it's wet, and textile engineering has yet to build a fiber that comes close to imitating that. For a stop-and-go activity like skiing, that ability to thermoregulate is pretty clutch. The fact that it's also naturally odor resistant also makes it a nice choice for an against-the-skin layer, and depending on the different rating scales for eco-friendliness, it tends to be rated as greener than synthetics.
 

Slim

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I would go natural fiber outerwear because I liked the company making itor the style, or environmental reasons (that one needs careful examination). Also for winter camping because of fire resistance. But not for other reasons.
There is a guy in our neighborhood making some super cool stuff:


Base and mid layers layers need to wick, breath and perhaps absorb some moisture.

For outer layers it is hard to imagine needing anything other than breathability. Once you start weaving/boiling/felting wool thickly and tightly enough to be wind resistant and durable, you don’t have much breathability left.
For intermittent efforts outdoors, it’s great, becasue you won’t feel clammy becasue of the wool absorbing and dispersing the water vapor.
But for sustained efforts? The less a sort ii the better, and the more breathabilty the better.

If you need true water proofing, wool won’t offer it.
If you need only light water resistance, synthetic can offer that, while being more durable and more breathable as well.
if you want somehting less slippery, there are plenty of textured synthetic fabrics that offer that: ripstop heavier Cordura and even the new airpermeable shells, like Pertex Quantum Air.

In short, for skiing I don’t see any benefit to wool for anything other than base and possibly mid layers.
 

Posaune

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No expert on wool here, but I've worn a lot of it. It's great that it loses very little of its insulation ability when it gets soaked and it breaths well, but I wonder about using it while skiing. Going 30mph downhill with a 15 mph wind in your face at 20F would make me worry. It does not stop the wind like a shell.
 
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SBrown

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No expert on wool here, but I've worn a lot of it. It's great that it looses very little of its insulation ability when it gets soaked and it breaths well, but I wonder about using it while skiing. Going 30mph downhill with a 15 mph wind in your face at 20F would make me worry. It does not stop the wind like a shell.

That's the point of what Voormi has done ... "Compared to the last 30 years of multi-layer, 'glue-based' weatherproofing technology, this patented construction relies on the direct integration of a weatherproofing membrane in to the core of the fabric itself. The result: A soft, supple, single layer, 'sweater-like' fabric with previously unattainable breathability and weather resistance." No, probably not quite like a shell, but I haven't tried it, just wondering if anyone has.
 

Doug Briggs

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Wool works really well when snow is falling as it will fall of the fabric. The problem with wool is when you sit down on a snow chair. As hydrophobic as wool can be it won't stop water from wicking through to your derriere.

The photos are of me sporting wool within the last 25 years. ;-) In the group, I'm second from right. The parking lot photo is prior to skiing Horseshoe Bowl at Breck.
 

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SShore

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I watched a show several years ago where a couple of guys climbed Everest in the same clothing (wool) as Hillary. They were amazed how comfortable and functional it was and how favoribly it compared to modern clothing.
 

Castle Dave

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Wool is great as a base or midlayer. I use Icebreaker. I used to wear wool ski touring in the BC coast mountains before Goretx and fleece were invented. (God I'm old!!) While they were warm even when wet they absorbed water and became very heavy. I can't see any advantages of wool compared to synthetics other than the underwear doesn't stink.
 

SBrown

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I had an ... interesting experience with wool slippers earlier this year. Took a dog out of the ski condo to pee, and just wore my shearling slippers, the scuffs with no back. Well, dog slipped the lead and ran away, across the snow-covered golf course, through other condo areas, etc. I am trying to run after it, but not easy in bare feet with scuffs, which kept filling with snow, so I took them off and carried them. Finally got dog back and put the slippers on to walk home. They were wet and still had clumps of snow inside, but they warmed up my feet. We won't talk about the entertainment I provided to anyone who happened to be watching....
 
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Freddo Bumps

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Thanks for the great thoughts so far! There are some things to chew on for sure. Water is definitely a key issue for many (not so much me as I’m mostly a fair-weather skier), wind resistance and breathability, too. Some comments so far were things that came up in my conversation with Ralph (heavier weight wool means less breathability). Your comment above, Steve, about being wet but warm is one around which I still need to wrap my head. Ralph talked about the why’s of this, but I can’t recall the specifics. I do recall seeing a video of someone (Ralph, I think) getting into a river with some product on in the winter, coming out and warming up quickly.

From their website. I was able to track down the gentleman (advisor, as they call them) in VT who was behind the SkiJac design. I mentioned this discussion and asked if he might swing by to relay his experience. I’ll alert Ralph from WeatherWool as well. He’s not a skier, but he might weigh in on wool/product properties and analogous uses.

Thanks again. I’m looking forward to more thoughts and discussion.
 

neonorchid

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-
Your comment above, Steve, about being wet but warm is one around which I still need to wrap my head. Ralph talked about the why’s of this, but I can’t recall the specifics. I do recall seeing a video of someone (Ralph, I think) getting into a river with some product on in the winter, coming out and warming up quickly.
-
Not wool but the same concept:

 

Scrundy

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Never thought of wool for outerwear skiing. When I was hunting I always used wool, but wool is heavy. Never cross my mind for skiing for that reason, something to think about.
 

noncrazycanuck

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I am certainly not a fashionista but over the years I often skied with wool gear, all different layers.
Other than snow always sticking knees down and some water retention on outside layer on the wet days staying warm was never a problem, being too warm was more frequent.
I ski primarily in the PNW where temps are usually mild but in colder conditions the only difference I ever noticed was less snow balls below knees
But since lighter breathable water proof products are readily available I would never go back.
same goes for that woolen toque or the leather fur lined hat.
 

DanoT

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I mostly ski dry snow but wear a GorTex or other waterproof breathable membrane shell, not for waterproof but for wind proof vs other types of shells. For insulation I wear 2 layers of wool long underwear and wool sweater on top while varying thickness of the layers with cold/cool days. Fleece top instead of wool sweater on warm spring days.

GorTex shell also works well as a spring, summer, fall rain coat making it a lot more useful than other shell or wool outerwear.
 

Yo Momma

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Vroomi........ nice website........ nice quality gear. But they need some serious help on the color coordinating. A bit dated on the designs. Paging an "Artiste"...... They need a little Love Ortovox style. NRS (Northwest River...) is just starting to get the message after I've been hounding them for years about adding a little color to the men's line......not to mention a female pee zip for GF in their Radiant line! :crossfingers:
 
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