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user855

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I have been able to - by fluke - turn in both directions a couple of times.

so at this point I will conclude that my boots are not the issue.

if I cannot make a single turn in 4 hours I will get my boots checked.
 

T-Square

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Here’s your best bet for those 4 hours. In the first hour take a lesson. No more, no less, get a lesson under your belt.

I’m an engineer. You bet I over analyze everything. As a ski instructor I’ve worked with a lot of analytical clients. They need to get out of their heads and into their bodies just like I had to. Skiing, like most sports, requires you to feel and move. Thinking can get in the way.

A lesson at your stage is critical. A good instructor working with you will be able to see what you are doing and then guide you so you will be able to do it more efficiently and get you moving. So, I reiterate, take a lesson. The money spent will be well worth it.
 

LiquidFeet

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I'm a very analytical person too. Thinking about skiing (and how and why it works) can be fun, and maybe even useful.

But thinking too much WHILE you are doing it is counterproductive. Our brains are too slow and the connection to our balance and muscular systems are too indirect.

I too am an analytical thinker. It never hurt me, it only helped. I have no idea what these people mean when they say turn the thinking off. I say embrace your analytical urges and work with them. But there's one essential rule for the analytical thinker that helps eliminate "paralysis by analysis": focus on doing ONLY ONE new thing at a time.

You have a battle-plan list. Good. Take it with you and look at it on the lift. Make a decision what your first focus will be. Once skis are on the battlefield, put that list away and head down the hill with that ONE focus as your guide. Deal with that one focus all the way down to the bottom. Trial and error will happen. Your body will learn things.

On the lift ride up feel free to pull that list out and analyze all you want. Plan what you'll focus on during the next run down, given what just happened. Your battle plan will change once you are engaged in the battle, as such things do.

So: one focus per run, evaluate on the ride back up, one focus on the next run, analyze what just happened on the ride up, repeat. Your list will get revised in four hours of this. You'll be gifted with insights and revelations unthought-of so far. Enjoy the process. Take a pencil with you if you like and add notes to your list on the chair ride up. Be the nerd you want to be. Transcribe your notes into a dedicated ski journal afterwards, and keep the journals going over the years. You should see my shelf of ski journals.

OR ... take another lesson. I'm assuming you took a lesson on day one. Maybe I'm wrong?
 
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LiquidFeet

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I have been able to - by fluke - turn in both directions a couple of times.

so at this point I will conclude that my boots are not the issue.

if I cannot make a single turn in 4 hours I will get my boots checked.

Are you renting or do you own? Most (maybe all) beginners end up in boots-too-big, which can make for terrible problems. But people do learn in boots-too-big, amazingly.
 
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mdf

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I too am an analytical thinker. It never hurt me, it only helped. I have no idea what these people mean when they say turn the thinking off. I say embrace your analytical urges and work with them. But there's one essential rule for the analytical thinker that helps eliminate "paralysis by analysis": focus on doing ONLY ONE new thing at a time.
But thinking too much WHILE you are doing it is counterproductive.

Trying to focus on more than one thing would be "thinking too much".
Trying to tie what is going on back to the underlying physics is thinking too much.
Thinking about a movement that comes later instead of one happening now or next is thinking too much.

Being aware, on a very concrete level, of what you want to be doing and whether or not you actually are is NOT thinking too much. By "don't think too much" I don't mean turn off your brain. But leave the force vector analysis till après ski.
 
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user855

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@James

Had a big aha! moment after looking at the diagram


If I look at the diagram you uploaded, 6R and 6L is particularly surprising to me.

In 6L the head along with CM is over left ski while the center of pressure is over right ski.
How does that even happen!!

My biggest Aha! Moment is that CM and CP could be almost on top of opposite legs! That’s feels super weird to me.

Further the pelvis also needs to be between skis too as per previous discussion. So there are 3 things in 3 different places simultaneously. Wow!

left leg - head, center of mass
center - pelvis
Right leg - center of pressure

At high speeds I guess the centrifugal force allows this separation of centers. But at low speeds in a wedge turn on a gentle terrain I am surprised this amount of separation is physically possible
 

James

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But at low speeds in a wedge turn on a gentle terrain I am surprised this amount of separation is physically possible
Don't forget you're on a slope. Just standing still across the slope more pressure will be on downhill ski.

At high levels, things are similar, just more.
IMG_6840.jpg
 
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user855

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Thanks @James for the help! If you don't mind me asking one more question:

When my COM is on left and COP is on right (6L), what feeling should I get in each foot and leg? I am asking because then if I get that kind of feeling/sensation I'll know roughly where my COM and COP are.
 

JESinstr

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There is a great drill called the "pole drag" drill that puts you in alignment with your skis. There are a number of variations but the version you should try is holding the poles with hands forward in proper position and the tips just behind your boot heel. Using the muscles in your hands and wrists, drive the tips of the poles into the surface of the slope and maintain even pressure as you turn focusing on making sure the outside (down hill) pole gets most of the attention.

If you do this correctly, you will feel what you need to feel.
 
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James

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When my COM is on left and COP is on right (6L), what feeling should I get in each foot and leg? I am asking because then if I get that kind of feeling/sensation I'll know roughly where my COM and COP are.
Well, that’s a little tough to answer because.
Boots- who knows what’s going on with your boots and how big they are.

Socks- If you have a very thick sock it’s a little like novacaine for your foot.

You- everyone is different. Some people either don’t feel anything, are not aware of it, or can’t communicate it.

In general though, you’ll feel like you are standing on the outside foot. This case the right foot when turning left. The inside one will be lighter, and depending on slope and speed, may have very little weight on it. If you feel more weight on the inside foot, or uphill ski, you are too far inside or uphill.

Remember, you are turning - steering your feet/legs. Direct the tips where you want to go. Moving the com too much can make this difficult.

But, do you really need feeling in your feet to know where your com is? Probably not. How do you walk down stairs?

At your level, you basically want your com between your feet. It shifts sideways as you’ve seen. But any really big shifts will get you into trouble.

If you concentrate on release, then turning, pretty much it should take care of itself.

Right tip right to go right. (Left tip left to go left) That’s the inside ski. If you guide that inside ski, you will take care of the outside.
(Note the above is true even though the outside ski does all the work.)
 

LiquidFeet

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...
Right tip right to go right. (Left tip left to go left) That’s the inside ski. If you guide that inside ski, you will take care of the outside.
(Note the above is true even though the outside ski does all the work.)

That's the mantra to remember which foot for what. In a wedge, you are "tipping" the new inside ski to flat, but it's still tipping.
 

Dave Marshak

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When my COM is on left and COP is on right (6L), what feeling should I get in each foot and leg? I am asking because then if I get that kind of feeling/sensation I'll know roughly where my COM and COP are.
Don't ask anyone what you should feel. Feel what you feel, and watch what happens when you feel that way. However you feel when that happens, that is how you are supposed to feel. It's a lot like real life that way.

Skiing is all about dynamic balance. All that means is that you need to move your body in a way that would make you fall down if you weren't going the right speed. Your body is too smart to do that, but skiers aren't. If you are smart enough to analyze it, you might be too smart to actually do it.

dm
 

Marin

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Two most important things are :
1. Work on to Separate upper and lower body ( you skiing with your legs not whole body , Hips ,knees and ankles are moving , anything above hips are not moving)
2. Position of your Knees, One of them is , when you are on outside ski that leg knee needs to be inside to flip that ski and hold edge, this is the common mistake that most beginners are do, trying to flip ski on edge with whole body or hips).

Best will be if you can post few short videos then probably we can give you better answer what you doing right and what yuo doing wrong.
 
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oldschoolskier

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My guess its not over the above.

What part of you body are you turning your skis with? Do you have video?
@user855 currently you are learning a lot on this site ski extremely well and use terms that correct my mislead you. Your next 4hrs out get someone to take a few videos of you skiing, you will get a better meaningful response to help with your issue.

:useless:
 

vindibona1

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There are some answers above that may help. But I think most miss the essence of the problem. I boil almost all my lessons down into three areas:

1) Turn shape. You control the turn shape. The turn shape should be the primary contributor to speed control (of course relative to the slope). Turn shape is crucial at every level of skiing.

2) ACTIVE ***INSIDE*** SKI. This is where most skier with a "wedge problem" go wrong (and the subject of this thread). Skiers are too often taught that the outside ski is the dominant and active ski. It really isn't... or at least shouldn't be. I could write a book on just this one subject. This is where I'll focus down below.

3) Lateral body position [where the center of mass is between right and left skis]. I don't teach in terms of weighting or pressure, but BODY POSITION which allows pressure to occur correctly and naturally. Proper lateral body position helps to unlock the feet and allow them to edge and flatten the skis at will with a quiet upper body. As far as pressure is concerned, once the turn shape begins (direction change) centrifugal force takes over and proper body alignment/position between the skis, and ultimately along the line-of-action (LOA) later on when the forces build and require more resistance. I then can talk about adjusting pressure from leg flexion/extension.

What causes the snowplow (converging skis) is the notion that the outside ski should be pushed out and turned (rotary push-off). It works... for beginners. But then you have to "unlearn" it. PSIA, while it advocates the "gliding wedge" where students are encouraged to use the inside ski, then goes on to talk about matching the inside ski at the end of the turn; then earlier in the turn, etc. (Wedge Christie I and II). I think instructors often assume that a new skier must begin with a wedge, and often errantly encourage the convergence. IMO this is long outdated teaching/learning technique and installs movement patterns that are counter to advanced and expert skiing. Somehow the OP got into the rotary push-off technique and now must unlearn/relearn to progress. It is the INSIDE SKI should control the turn shape, or path the skier wishes to travel, not an active, dominant outside ski. Use the left ski to go left and the right ski to go right. You can begin the turn by tipping the outside baby toe of the inside ski to the outside edge (left ski-left edge/right ski-right edge). Alternately you can attempt to steer the inside ski through the path. EDGING AND STEERING ARE MUCH THE SAME MOTION, with the femur rotating in the hip socket. It's just that the edge tipping motion can help the skier learn how to leverage forces from the feet (rather than the concept of edging from the knees). In truth, more often than not, edging and steering (rotary) are "blended skills", where we often use them both, in varying proportions. When you utilize the inside ski, the snow will create resistance (torque) which will go up the inside leg, across the pelvis and down the outside leg. IN OTHER WORDS... THE TORQUE OF THE INSIDE POWERS THE OUTSIDE SKI- WHICH WILL FOLLOW ALONG AUTOMATICALLY. Result: INSTANT (or near instant) PARALLEL TURN. Just add a little forward motion to make it happen.... At very slow speeds a slight wedge shape may appear, but disappears automatically once the skier is no longer skiing at a snail's pace.

... Now you can look at other methods to sort of accomplish the same thing. But I prefer my method because in using that inside foot actively in within the shape of the turn, not only does it help to turn the outside ski, but almost automatically creates the separation of upper and lower body, because the upper body remains quiet and the feet do all the work.

But don't ignore #1- turn shape. That is the key to improvement at every level.

I probably missed something. Please let me know if I was unclear about anything. But in essence, that is the Ski World, According to Vindibona.
 
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vindibona1

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Please forgive me, but I want to elaborate on how I got thinking about the "active inside ski" as I spoke of it in my earlier reply...

I can't remember the year, but at the time Phil and Steve Maher famous World Cup skiers. I was given Warren Witherell's book "The Athletic Skier". I guess it was 1993. I was struck by their use of the "Whitepass turn"; where they needed quick initiation and execution of turn in a tough spot. I was still racing at the time and decided to learn this move. But to my surprise, even though it has been noted as a "racing move", dialed back a bit it has huge teaching/learning/actual-skiing implications.

What the Whitepass' main deal was to release the "old outside ski" (which becomes the new inside ski) and initiate a turn on that same ski so the next turn could be started quickly (instantly). To do that one had to adjust the body position more over that old outside ski at the end of the turn. One could think of it as a preparation to the body cross-over move... or even an early crossover. I found that I could make a full turn on that new inside ski (or partial turn) which of course was the NEW INSIDE SKI. I could then employ pressure on the new outside ski at pretty much any time.

What I came to discover is that from this oddball turn, a skier didn't need to transfer weight/pressure at the beginning of a turn, or even until much later; and that pressure could be controlled by body position managed throughout the turn, as one uses flexion and extension and angulation to manage the pressure created mostly by centrifugal force. I learned that I could transfer pressure at the beginning of a turn, somewhere toward the middle of the turn and even (but not very useful) at the end of a turn! It's largely about body position in motion. But in addition, (more relevant to the beginner/snowplow/wedge issue) I learned that the torque created by the active inside ski generates force up the inside leg, across the pelvis and actually provides the forces to control the outside ski! But as an added bonus, the active inside ski, with the torque generated provides a natural way to maintain upper/lower body separation.

I know I've written a lot here (sorry)... and could write a lot more on this, but I'll stop here. I just wanted to share how I came to the teaching approach I laid out in my earlier response. Thanks for taking the time to read this stuff.
 
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Dave Marshak

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The White Pass turn might something the OP can look forward to later in his career.

dm
 

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