Influence of Binding Delta on Demo ski impressions

[ted]

When demoing skis, how much does binding delta unknowingly influence the impression of a ski? Years back, before I realized how strongly binding delta influenced my skiing, I attended a demo day and my impression of the skis was dramatically different than what I expected. I found a pair of skis that stood out for me, and eventually purchased that ski and happily skied that ski for a long time.

When I bought several other new pairs of skis I eventually figured out that the binding delta mattered and I then made all my skis match the pair that I liked. This has made a huge difference in my skiing and now when I attend a demo, I factor the binding delta into my impressions.

Pondering this, I wonder how many people are also unknowingly influence by the aried binding delta of demo skis?

"Talk amongst yourselves"

If that reference is lost on you, please share your thoughts on this subject.

 

[Ski&ride]

Pondering this, I wonder how many people are also unknowingly influence by the aried binding delta of demo skis?

I can attest to the importance of delta.

But I don’t know how to “factor the binding delta into my impressions”. If the delta is off enough, I just dislike the skis. Can’t figure out what to make of how the ski WOULD ski with a different delta.

 

[Philpug]

When you get a chance read "What does it take to properly demo a ski" and I address the binding in "Thing 3".

"New" Thing 3: The Binding
We doubt you will find any place on the interwebz that is more obsessed with bindings. Our readers and followers will lament over fore/aft postion, stack height, and ramp angle of every single option. Well all of those aspects of a binding also come into play when you are demoing a ski. Most "system skis" that are demo'ed will usually have the same (adjustable) binding that your will be getting when you purchase the ski, so that leaves little variables. Where bindings come into play is when you are demoing a flat ski and the retailer/rep has installed a "demo" binding. You need to take this into consideration when demoing a ski. Skis that are set up with Markers will have a negative delta, meaning, the toe of the binding is higher than the heel also Marker's demo binding stack height (how high you are from the top of the ski) is very close to the retail versions. Salomon's Warden demo bindings, like the Markers ski very close to their retail counterparts, which is very good. Tyrolia Attack and Look Konect demos will ski different than the retail versions because you are significantly higher off of the ski so this also needs to be taken into consideration.

I will say in most cases the delta doesn't have much to do with the demo experience as stack height does. Of the major demo binding options, only Marker is different. Most all demo bindings have a delta of positive 2-3mm or so, Marker is the only one that is a negative delta and that is about 1-2mm. But it you stay demo to retail within a brand, there is very little difference in delta.

What you do feel going from the demo binding is more the stack height and the effect that has on the ski's different behavior. There can be over a centimeter height differance from a demo binding to it's retail counterpart.

Also consider that most skis that are being demoed that are under 90mm underfoot..especially when you get under 80mm, are being demo'ed with a demo/system binding that is also the retail version. I am talking manufacturer demos, not skis that are in a shop "demo" that are usually glorified rental skis and quite frankly, you shouldn't be making a buying decision off of that experience anyway.

 

[ted]

Missed the "What does it take to properly demo a ski".
Good Article.
Any others have thoughts to share?

 

[Coolhand]

We have installed shims on the heel pieces/plates of our Marker Demo bindings in our demo fleet. That way it is "apples to apples" at least as far as delta goes when a customer is doing a comparison demo. I have always been a Marker proponent, but really dislike the negative delta that they have on current demo bindings. Much prefer the Tyrolia and Salomon offerings right now.

 

[chopchop]

We have installed shims on the heel pieces/plates of our Marker Demo bindings in our demo fleet. That way it is "apples to apples" at least as far as delta goes when a customer is doing a comparison demo. I have always been a Marker proponent, but really dislike the negative delta that they have on current demo bindings. Much prefer the Tyrolia and Salomon offerings right now.

Can you share the specs on the shims you use? I have a set and may take this approach.

 

[ted]

I can attest to the importance of delta.

But I don’t know how to “factor the binding delta into my impressions”. If the delta is off enough, I just dislike the skis. Can’t figure out what to make of how the ski WOULD ski with a different delta.

Valid point, can't say I can totally disregard the issue, but being aware of it helps.

 

[Coolhand]

Can you share the specs on the shims you use? I have a set and may take this approach.

We ordered some bulk HDPE plastic in 1/8" thickness and had it cut at the warehouse into pieces that accomodate most heel and toe pieces. Need to get longer screws to make up for the additional thickness. So far this has worked like a charm.

 

[chopchop]

I will say in most cases the delta doesn't have much to do with the demo experience as stack height does. Of the major demo binding options, only Marker is different. Most all demo bindings have a delta of positive 2-3mm or so, Marker is the only one that is a negative delta and that is about 1-2mm.

On the same topic:

Heard from one of the guys at WNDR (they use Marker Griffon demos on their skis) and here's what he said re: negative delta:

"I've been skiing these bindings on many of our prototypes, and have never noticed that [they] affect the way they ski whatsoever and I've never heard anyone complain about it."​

 

[Philpug]

On the same topic:

Heard from one of the guys at WNDR (they use Marker Griffon demos on their skis) and here's what he said re: negative delta:

"I've been skiing these bindings on many of our prototypes, and have never noticed that [they] affect the way they ski whatsoever and I've never heard anyone complain about it."​

Remember too, the ski companies that are affiliated with Marker, design and test their skis with Marker bindings, so there is that to consider. When we get a ski sent to us from K2, they prefer I mount them with a Marker binding.

 

[chopchop]

We ordered some bulk HDPE plastic in 1/8" thickness and had it cut at the warehouse into pieces that accomodate most heel and toe pieces. Need to get longer screws to make up for the additional thickness. So far this has worked like a charm.

Cool. I infer that the cutout/design doesn't need to cleanly match the measurements of the heel baseplate/track.