inconsistent base bevel from montana

Toddski13

Booting up
Skier
Doesn’t Montana use belts for sharpening the side edges?
@James primarily yes, they have a stand-alone disc machine called Race Edge and they offer the same technology as a module in some of their automated machines (though I’ve never seen one deployed that way). The belts help contribute to the lack of precision and consistency the data-based graphic I posted illustrates.
 

Swiss Toni

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162
If the graphic of the disk grind you posted was based on data it would look like this


Probably better than what a Montana belt grinding unit can do, but not perfect, there is always some rounding and the surface isn't smooth.

To measure the edge angles and surface roughness Atomic uses an Alicona InfiniteFocus 3D surface measurement system https://www.alicona.com/products/infinitefocus/ this is what a magnified ground ski edge looks like



Montana is owned by a German company called Knoll Feinmechanik, all the machines are designed and built in Germany. Their main area of business seems to be the design and manufacture of automated systems for the pharmaceutical / medical device industry http://gb.knoll-feinmechanik.de/Company/3-10---.html
 
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tube77

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The issue here is not the variable base bevel the OP describes - rather it’s the methodology that is used to obtain this ‘radial’ tune and the consistency/reproducibility the machinery allows. There are a number of athletes and technicians who achieve a true variable base bevel (either by machine or by hand) but what they are doing is consistent and reproducible. Having just spent two weeks working with US Ski Team athletes at every level doing ski analysis, we saw a huge variance in base bevel, even with skis that were tuned at the same time, from machines that produce a radial tune. Some skis were nicely prepared with .7 in the tip and tail with a consistent .5 underfoot, but the vast majority were way over that and when using a true bar you quickly could see that the edges actually increased from .5 where the edge met the base to 1.5+ at the apex of the edge. Someone else mentioned belt edging and the inconsistencies that come with it... see the attached graphic that is a visual representation of measurements done to the micrometer and shows what a belt yields for side edge finish, especially when paired with a ‘radial’ tuning system that is imparting base bevel. I hear all the time how easy HTT base edge is for shops and that it’s “good enough” for our customers... I really wonder if these customers skied on a well prepared edge whether they’d agree that the rounded, inconsistent ‘radial’ tune was good enough. View attachment 86031
I presume there might be some skis that was prepared by hand with consistent base bevel from tip to tail unlike the machine prepared ones.
Did you have a chance to talk with the athletes if they prefer the consistent base bevel by hand over the varying bevel by machine?
I am curious what top level racers prefer for their racing day..
I am pretty sure they could immediately tell the difference between the two..
 
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tube77

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I think I'll just stick to my "old fashion" hand tuning. ;)
That's what I prefer too...but I am quite scared to file the base by myself after totally screwing up two skis that eventually went into the machine in the end...
 

Toddski13

Booting up
Skier
I presume there might be some skis that was prepared by hand with consistent base bevel from tip to tail unlike the machine prepared ones.
Did you have a chance to talk with the athletes if they prefer the consistent base bevel by hand over the varying bevel by machine?
I am curious what top level racers prefer for their racing day..
I am pretty sure they could immediately tell the difference between the two..
@tube77 you'd actually be surprised at the varying levels of feel among even the highest level athletes. Most can tell that they 'like' or 'dislike' a given base bevel, but feel between different angles eludes them. That said, my experience recently, and over the last twenty years is that consistent, non-variable base bevel (regardless of hand or machine finish) has been the consensus for a larger group of athletes at every level - especially with SL and GS skis. There are for sure some athletes who have preferred variable base bevel - Marcel Hirscher was one of them until the last season he competed - but typically they are using it with SG and DH.

Currently, except in instances of machine component failure, the standard for edges finished in the vast majority of ski factories and factory race rooms is consistent, non-variable base bevel.
 
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tube77

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@tube77 you'd actually be surprised at the varying levels of feel among even the highest level athletes. Most can tell that they 'like' or 'dislike' a given base bevel, but feel between different angles eludes them. That said, my experience recently, and over the last twenty years is that consistent, non-variable base bevel (regardless of hand or machine finish) has been the consensus for a larger group of athletes at every level - especially with SL and GS skis. There are for sure some athletes who have preferred variable base bevel - Marcel Hirscher was one of them until the last season he competed - but typically they are using it with SG and DH.

Currently, except in instances of machine component failure, the standard for edges finished in the vast majority of ski factories and factory race rooms is consistent, non-variable base bevel.
That's very nice to know! Appreciate it!
 

ScottB

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561
Location
Boston
tube77,

I am a race coach for a local ski team (youths) and we always recommend a constant base and edge tune. It is really what you want to be on. If you are into experimenting with variable bevel tunes and determine what you like, then that is fine as well.

I never new that Monatana machines produce variable base bevel tunes, and according to Toddski13, not very consistently. I can personally attest that a ski with a variable base bevel due to wear and age will not ski well, once corrected to a constant and propper (I like 0.5 base angle) bevel, the skis perform well again.

You need to find a shop with a Winterstieger machine. It might be worth trying your skis as is and see what you think.
 

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