IKON the Lightning Rod

[LKLA]

As a local I'm appreciative of the surplus we have and have had. Vacationers endure a lot more than us in pursuing skiing. We're almost always there when the goods are, it costs us less on a daily basis, we know how to get a lot out of the hills. It isn't about us. Our gig is made possible by vacationers.

That is the smartest way to look at it. You can have your cake and eat it too!

It may take some adjusting here and there as to when you ski, and a few things may change, but getting more folks to spend more money in your community is hard to see as anything other than a benefit to those in the community.

 

[Kyle]

As a local I'm appreciative of the surplus we have and have had. Vacationers endure a lot more than us in pursuing skiing. We're almost always there when the goods are, it costs us less on a daily basis, we know how to get a lot out of the hills. It isn't about us. Our gig is made possible by vacationers.

This strikes me as a remarkably mature way to look at it. I wish I always felt the same way but I often feel entitled to things as they have been in the past. However, aside from skiing, Utah has grown more than I would like generally so the feeling but extends to the day-to-day routine like traffic, restaurants, etc.

I have only skied Snowbasin and Sun Valley so far this year and have not ventured out to see and experience the Ikon impact. Prior to reading these forums and knowing that Snowbasin was likely to end up in either the Epic or Ikon camp, I was hoping for Ikon due to the resorts it covers. I would love to be able to show up at Alta, Solitude, Deer Valley or Jackson without any incremental lift ticket expense but all my data points with those areas are pre-Ikon. The thought of Deer Valley with a lot of additional skiers is pretty scary.

 

[Lorenzzo]

This strikes me as a remarkably mature way to look at it. I wish I always felt the same way but I often feel entitled to things as they have been in the past. However, aside from skiing, Utah has grown more than I would like generally so the feeling but extends to the day-to-day routine like traffic, restaurants, etc.

I have only skied Snowbasin and Sun Valley so far this year and have not ventured out to see and experience the Ikon impact. Prior to reading these forums and knowing that Snowbasin was likely to end up in either the Epic or Ikon camp, I was hoping for Ikon due to the resorts it covers. I would love to be able to show up at Alta, Solitude, Deer Valley or Jackson without any incremental lift ticket expense but all my data points with those areas are pre-Ikon. The thought of Deer Valley with a lot of additional skiers is pretty scary.

Well sure I liked it the way it was but the world changes. Maybe I've reached an age where I accept that. Our choice is to accept and adapt. Peeps wanna ski, we oughta understand that as well as anyone. You're right though, DV can be scary from the wrong places when there are 9,500 skiers out there on slick, narrow trails.

 

[AmyPJ]

As a local I'm appreciative of the surplus we have and have had. Vacationers endure a lot more than us in pursuing skiing. We're almost always there when the goods are, it costs us less on a daily basis, we know how to get a lot out of the hills. It isn't about us. Our gig is made possible by vacationers.

I WAS that vacationer until 5 years ago. I waited 20 years to get here thanks to the Air Force. If anything, it's the local cheap season passes that add to the masses where I ski. It's definitely a double-edged sword. The shop where the better half works is crazy busy, which is a GREAT thing. I just miss quiet days on the mountain. Part of my grumbling really has as much to do with the fact that I work during the week now. I used to not ski Saturdays at all, even when I worked there. I got spoiled for sure, but I also waited a LONG time for the opportunity.

Now, if we could just teach the vacationers that weaving through the gondola maze to catch up with your party is NOT smiled upon. "Oh, your party is up ahead? Great, better go get in the singles line so you can catch them at the top!"

 

[Near Nyquist]

someone should tell the locals it's either IKON or become part of the Vail family?

We are the borg
You will be assimilated
Resistance is futile

 

[onstar1]

What????

Ikon does nothing for us Utah locals. Why would I want to buy a pass that limits me to 5 or 7 days at my local mountain? Why would I want to travel when I can stay at home and drive 15 minutes to the gondola?

JH joining IKON allows them to be independent. VAIL destroys homes and build condos

 

[dbostedo]

JH joining IKON allows them to be independent. VAIL destroys homes and build condos

But Vail has been adopting the Ikon model (or MCP, or other multi-resort passes) of partner resorts that they don't own - Telluride, and the Resorts of the Canadian Rockies Group (Nakiska, Fernie, Kicking Horse, and Kimberly) this year; And adding Snowbasin, and Sun Valley next year.

There's no reason Jackson Hole couldn't choose between either Ikon or Epic and have a similar arrangement.

 

[Skisailor]

It seems like marketing as the Ramcharger 8 has 64 chairs (sometimes fewer) and the old Ramcharger had 128 quad chairs so uphill capacity didn't improve. Having a HSQ at Shedhorn has helped with dispersing the "crowds" and made lapping the area faster.

I agree that the best aspect of the new 8 pack is that the old Ramcharger replaced the slow Shedhorn double lift. Really nice. Now that area needs more terrain development.

 

[Talisman]

Now that area needs more terrain development.

One issue is so many trails funnel into Jock Strap when Ball Buster is closed. Jock Strap which was almost always a mess in the past with light traffic and now with more traffic it is a narrow melange of ice, rocks and dirt.

 

[David Chaus]

From the article:

“Cole noted that purchases of walk-up tickets and other combo passes are down, meaning the net increase of Ikon is effectively lower than 14 percent. That muddies the water, making it difficult to draw precise conclusions.”

I think that if anything, the Ikon Pass has been marketed successfully enough that it’s reduced the walk-up ticket sales, for people who were already going to go there due to good snow, good economy to support travel, and something else I can’t remember.

Oh, yeah, people that don’t want to buy an Epic Pass but still want to travel to someplace cool that isn’t their home area.

 

[Drahtguy Kevin]

One issue is so many trails funnel into Jock Strap when Ball Buster is closed. Jock Strap which was almost always a mess in the past with light traffic and now with more traffic it is a narrow melange of ice, rocks and dirt.

So, Jock Strap is a ball buster when Ball Buster isn’t busting balls?

 

[Lorenzzo]

So, Jock Strap is a ball buster when Ball Buster isn’t busting balls?

I would think Jockstrap would be protecting skiers from Ball Buster.

 

[Analisa]

I think the other important point is that vacationer friendliness isn't just about the number of additional people - it's also the changes that management makes to cater to vacationers at the expense of locals and the resort's culture. Just after the Whistler acquisition, the (very pro-Vail) former mayor of the Whistler municipality sent a message to lower-mainland locals that "we don't necessarily want people who are coming up for a day, packing a bag with their lunch in it, and not really appreciating the mountain culture that we have."

Likewise at Stevens, where they're strongly considering removing the RV lot. F Lot is kind of "home" for a lot of the local legends who make Stevens cooler than just the official ski resort of Microsoft and Amazon.com. Lots of race families set up shop there and it's where our Ingrid's and our Arne's come from. Getting rid of it doesn't have a huge impact on the numbers. 30 skiers? 50? But those customers all show up without a kitchen in their ride or a warm place to drink beer and they're way more likely to be the rental & lessons sort of customer. Sometimes a small increase in visitors comes with a middle finger to long time customers, locals, and a culture that's a little quirky.

 

[Mothertucker]

I would think Jockstrap would be protecting skiers from Ball Buster.

That would be World Cup.

 

[Skisailor]

One issue is so many trails funnel into Jock Strap when Ball Buster is closed. Jock Strap which was almost always a mess in the past with light traffic and now with more traffic it is a narrow melange of ice, rocks and dirt.

That's one issue, but I'm talking about developing more gladed trails in the Shedhorn area. Apparently, this past summer they started doing some tree cutting above Middle Road to thin the tree density. That should continue in the upcoming off season below Middle Road so that we can have continuous glade runs down to the lift.

 

[Ogg]

I think the other important point is that vacationer friendliness isn't just about the number of additional people - it's also the changes that management makes to cater to vacationers at the expense of locals and the resort's culture. Just after the Whistler acquisition, the (very pro-Vail) former mayor of the Whistler municipality sent a message to lower-mainland locals that "we don't necessarily want people who are coming up for a day, packing a bag with their lunch in it, and not really appreciating the mountain culture that we have."

Likewise at Stevens, where they're strongly considering removing the RV lot. F Lot is kind of "home" for a lot of the local legends who make Stevens cooler than just the official ski resort of Microsoft and Amazon.com. Lots of race families set up shop there and it's where our Ingrid's and our Arne's come from. Getting rid of it doesn't have a huge impact on the numbers. 30 skiers? 50? But those customers all show up without a kitchen in their ride or a warm place to drink beer and they're way more likely to be the rental & lessons sort of customer. Sometimes a small increase in visitors comes with a middle finger to long time customers, locals, and a culture that's a little quirky.

We experienced something similar at Killington, VT about 15 years ago. The Killington Ski Club had always had perks associated with it(discount season passes, cheap or even free passes for guests, etc.) but they pretty much gave the middle finger to a bunch of long time die hards when new management took over. That was when my family decided western skiing was a way better deal.

 

[David Chaus]

I think the other important point is that vacationer friendliness isn't just about the number of additional people - it's also the changes that management makes to cater to vacationers at the expense of locals and the resort's culture. Just after the Whistler acquisition, the (very pro-Vail) former mayor of the Whistler municipality sent a message to lower-mainland locals that "we don't necessarily want people who are coming up for a day, packing a bag with their lunch in it, and not really appreciating the mountain culture that we have."

Likewise at Stevens, where they're strongly considering removing the RV lot. F Lot is kind of "home" for a lot of the local legends who make Stevens cooler than just the official ski resort of Microsoft and Amazon.com. Lots of race families set up shop there and it's where our Ingrid's and our Arne's come from. Getting rid of it doesn't have a huge impact on the numbers. 30 skiers? 50? But those customers all show up without a kitchen in their ride or a warm place to drink beer and they're way more likely to be the rental & lessons sort of customer. Sometimes a small increase in visitors comes with a middle finger to long time customers, locals, and a culture that's a little quirky.

A parking lot attendant mentioned they had an all-staff meeting about their plans (for next year? not sure). They are going to build a parking garage (not sure where) and since they will no longer need the overflow lot at Yodelin, they are building a hotel there and will shuttle guests over.

Talk about a change in ski area culture.

 

[Wasatchman]

JH joining IKON allows them to be independent. VAIL destroys homes and build condos

I'm pretty sure JH doesn't need to partner with anyone to stay independent.

 

[LKLA]

I think the other important point is that vacationer friendliness isn't just about the number of additional people - it's also the changes that management makes to cater to vacationers at the expense of locals and the resort's culture. Just after the Whistler acquisition, the (very pro-Vail) former mayor of the Whistler municipality sent a message to lower-mainland locals that "we don't necessarily want people who are coming up for a day, packing a bag with their lunch in it, and not really appreciating the mountain culture that we have."

Likewise at Stevens, where they're strongly considering removing the RV lot. F Lot is kind of "home" for a lot of the local legends who make Stevens cooler than just the official ski resort of Microsoft and Amazon.com. Lots of race families set up shop there and it's where our Ingrid's and our Arne's come from. Getting rid of it doesn't have a huge impact on the numbers. 30 skiers? 50? But those customers all show up without a kitchen in their ride or a warm place to drink beer and they're way more likely to be the rental & lessons sort of customer. Sometimes a small increase in visitors comes with a middle finger to long time customers, locals, and a culture that's a little quirky.

True.

But keep in mind that running any business, more so a ski resort, is difficult, risky and not a high margin business. While 50 skiers may not seem like a lot to you or I, for a small resort to have those additional 50 revenue streams on a regular basis could be a nice tailwind to their business. I think big or small, the overwhelming majority of ski resorts err on the side of being fair/more than fair.

Skiing is a "one size fits all" business. It will never be possible for an owner to please everyone given the vastly different people who ski at a mountain - different skill levels, different budgets, different food desires, different facility requirements.... different ages, different family compositions,... So you have to find the mountain that best suits YOUR needs.

 

[Coach13]

To think any business is going to buy another business without trying to make improvements to increase revenue is the stuff fairytales are made of. How do yiu think they are going to recapture their investment and turn a profit going forward? It likely does affect the local culture but I can assure you they aren’t trying to run off local skiers. In Summit and Eagle counties Vail obviously does whatever it can to draw destination skiers and the Epic Pass is part of that, but-there are a ton of locals enjoying the benefits of that same pass skiing the Vail resorts and ABasin. FWIW Whistler was pretty commercialized long before Vail showed up there. Same with the Park City resorts.