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Ryan Dietrich

Getting on the lift
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It's not always about the money...we could double our money if we sold it right now. It is not an investment but our home. I am sure many of these people feel the same way.

Well, I get that as well. But something has to give at a certain point. Utah's tourism is a huge part of the state. My wife is on the community council for our kids school, they get tens of thousands of dollars every year from the state because of the visitors to all the parks. The state is growing like crazy, and if our ski resorts turn into disasters because of inadequate infrastructure that will kill the golden goose and our taxes will have to rise to compensate for the lack of revenue brought in from tourism. I'm not saying "drill baby drill", I'm saying "recognize the cause and effect of the situation and make prudent decisions for the future".

I literally moved to Utah to ski six years ago. I chose Utah over Colorado because I-70 was infuriating to me. The wasatch front has options, most resorts (park city, snowbasin) have multiple roads in and out of the resort. But LCC/BCC are locked, and unless someone builds a lift connecting them, or additional roads (tunnels?!) to alleviate the lack of bandwidth to the resorts, the traffic issue is only going to get worse.

Or maybe climate change will end the discussion for us and wipe out all skiing in Utah (ok, I had a smiley face here, but now that I think about it, I get sadder by the minute).
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
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I have one question I'd like to ask here: For those who have skied some of the resorts in question a couple days this season, vs. those who have skied them upwards of 90 days so far, who do people think might have a better grasp on how much busier things are compared to, say, the past 4 or 5 seasons?
 

Wasatchman

over the hill
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Well, I get that as well. But something has to give at a certain point. Utah's tourism is a huge part of the state. My wife is on the community council for our kids school, they get tens of thousands of dollars every year from the state because of the visitors to all the parks. The state is growing like crazy, and if our ski resorts turn into disasters because of inadequate infrastructure that will kill the golden goose and our taxes will have to rise to compensate for the lack of revenue brought in from tourism. I'm not saying "drill baby drill", I'm saying "recognize the cause and effect of the situation and make prudent decisions for the future".

I literally moved to Utah to ski six years ago. I chose Utah over Colorado because I-70 was infuriating to me. The wasatch front has options, most resorts (park city, snowbasin) have multiple roads in and out of the resort. But LCC/BCC are locked, and unless someone builds a lift connecting them, or additional roads (tunnels?!) to alleviate the lack of bandwidth to the resorts, the traffic issue is only going to get worse.

Or maybe climate change will end the discussion for us and wipe out all skiing in Utah (ok, I had a smiley face here, but now that I think about it, I get sadder by the minute).
Even though I ski, I guess I'm one of those tree hugging environmentalists that strongly oppose your "solution"of another road into LCC. Something needs to be done for sure, but I favor mass transit only up the canyon or a toll to discourage use of cars as a solution.
 

Ryan Dietrich

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Even though I ski, I guess I'm one of those tree hugging environmentalists that strongly oppose your "solution"of another road into LCC. Something needs to be done for sure, but I favor mass transit only up the canyon or a toll to discourage use of cars as a solution.

The toll will just cut off the least wealthy of us off at the knees. We're sitting here in a thread where a new pass has drastically dropped the price of access to ski, and your answer is to figure out ways to increase the price in response to decrease the flow of traffic?

Mass transit up the canyon? They don't have the money or space to build a parking garage at the bottom of LCC, where is everyone going to park?

It has to be a market based solution where both sides get a win, there has to be some compromise somewhere. The clock is ticking, ikon isn't going away, the population is going to increase, and for the time being, the snow is continuing to fall.
 

Monique

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The toll will just cut off the least wealthy of us off at the knees.

I wonder if equestrian and golf forums have the same sorts of concerns that we do about making sure that people of lesser means have access to the sport. (However maybe you're talking about general access to the great outdoors, not just lift serviced skiing?)

Curious. I 70 is a disaster in the summer, too. How are LCC/BCC in the summer?
 

Ryan Dietrich

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Curious. I 70 is a disaster in the summer, too. How are LCC/BCC in the summer?

LCC/BCC in the summer are fine, you just gotta watch out for the people on bikes. Lots of people out hiking, but nowhere near the insanity of 3+ hours to drive up to Alta on a powder day.
 

Monique

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LCC/BCC in the summer are fine, you just gotta watch out for the people on bikes. Lots of people out hiking, but nowhere near the insanity of 3+ hours to drive up to Alta on a powder day.

At least there's that ...
 

AmyPJ

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LCC/BCC in the summer are fine, you just gotta watch out for the people on bikes. Lots of people out hiking, but nowhere near the insanity of 3+ hours to drive up to Alta on a powder day.
I don't know, it's on the news all the time how the canyons are being "loved to death" during the summer. Issues with dog urine and feces, etc affecting the watersheds. Now, the traffic is definitely nothing like a powder day, but it's a busy place up there and is becoming more so all the time.
 

RJS

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So, this is a bit off topic so I apologize, but in my *humble* opinion, I believe the most important thing to fix the cottonwood canyons is to add access through American Fork canyon. Snowbird has been working on this for years, and has faced stiff resistance. If they pull this off (there is some environmental issues that need sorting out from the old mines from way back in the day), it would solve a critical issue for those resorts, the fact that there is only one way in/out of LCC. I would buy an Alta/Bird pass in a microsecond if I could shave off a big chunk of time (and fuel) driving into Draper to get into LCC.

I've been thinking a lot about transportation solutions for LCC. I would love for someone with more knowledge of American Fork Canyon to weigh in, but I highly doubt that this is a viable option for the following reasons:

1) It appears that Forest Service road #085 past the Tibble Fork Dam is a gravel road. I can't tell from Google Earth if it's wide enough for two lanes of car travel or not. I would imagine that the road would need to be paved and widened for roughly 10km or longer (hard to tell on the map) to where Snowbird's parking lot/garage could be. Snowbird is planning on lengthening the Mineral Basin Express as part of their Mary Ellen Gulch expansion, but would they need to add even more terrain going further down into the canyon? The cost of paving/lengthening would be very high. It's a different place and a different route, but the cost of paving/widening the access road from Panorama to Jumbo was in the realm of $200M. It would be less here, but still a lot.

2) I'm not sure if you're imagining that the path into American Fork Canyon would begin at the intersection of 92 and 146 near Draper, or on 92 past Sundance, but it looks like either way those roads are currently closed in the winter in addition to Forest Service road #085. Looking on Google Earth for both route choices (but especially choice #1 above) the avalanche danger is very high, so there would be a huge cost to UDOT to provide avalanche control in the winter. Additionally, either route looks quite a bit longer than the LCC road.

3) The environmental opposition would be enormous, justified or not. Look at how much opposition there is to Alta not agreeing to give up Grizzly Gulch (to speak nothing of developing it) or building a pocket tram up to Baldy.

The toll will just cut off the least wealthy of us off at the knees. We're sitting here in a thread where a new pass has drastically dropped the price of access to ski, and your answer is to figure out ways to increase the price in response to decrease the flow of traffic?

Mass transit up the canyon? They don't have the money or space to build a parking garage at the bottom of LCC, where is everyone going to park?

It has to be a market based solution where both sides get a win, there has to be some compromise somewhere. The clock is ticking, ikon isn't going away, the population is going to increase, and for the time being, the snow is continuing to fall.

In my mind, the short term solution is to implement either congestion pricing or paid parking at Alta/Snowbird, and use the revenue generated to significantly expand the UTA ski bus system by adding lots more buses, more parking at existing stops, and maybe even more routes. I get that they might not have the money now, but they could issue bonds or come up with some other form of financing that gets them capital now, and in exchange they get revenue from the tolls or paid parking. I believe that the resorts already give season pass holders free access to the UTA ski buses, but if they don't they should. The goal here is that the less wealthy can still access LCC for free, they just have to do it on the bus. I know the busses are overcrowded now (I just used them a couple of weeks ago), so that's why UTA needs to invest in building out the service.

This isn't a solution to the problem, but One Wasatch could help a little bit by letting people from BCC ski over to LCC. That could be built entirely using private capital. Again, some environmentalists (Save Our Canyons) will come out in force against it, even though it requires very little public land to complete.

There's probably a better long-term solution to the problem. I don't know what that is, but what's becoming increasingly clear is that a short term solution is needed. Reading that KSL article, I was disappointed that UDOT's short-term solution is to just encourage more carpooling. Carpooling is great, and more people should do it, but it's difficult to scale, and many people that can carpool already do. It feels like a cop-out by UDOT instead of coming up with a real short-term solution.

One last thing: this thread is mostly about crowding on the slopes. A transportation solution solves the problem of getting to Alta/Snowbird, but without corresponding terrain expansion it will lead to more crowding. Pick your poison :huh:?
 

zircon

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I can’t believe it’s not England!
I wonder if equestrian and golf forums have the same sorts of concerns that we do about making sure that people of lesser means have access to the sport.

I can only speak about [english—hunter/jumper/eventing] equestrian forums/facebook, but there are conversations going on about accessibility of the sport. Particularly as channels of accessing high level competition as a working student seem to be drying up... These days show barns want you to work for them for free and also pay full price for everything. The talent pool for the next generation is shrinking quickly when the only people able to get scholarships are those with means to drop $100k on a horse at age 12.
 

Monique

bounceswoosh
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I don't know, it's on the news all the time how the canyons are being "loved to death" during the summer. Issues with dog urine and feces, etc affecting the watersheds. Now, the traffic is definitely nothing like a powder day, but it's a busy place up there and is becoming more so all the time.

Understood, but still miles away (hah) from I 70. Although weirdly, you don't hear about urine issues for the watershed in Colorado - I have heard about it in Utah. ???
 

AmyPJ

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Understood, but still miles away (hah) from I 70. Although weirdly, you don't hear about urine issues for the watershed in Colorado - I have heard about it in Utah. ???
Yeah, a wee bit north of I-70!
I think it's the proximity of the watersheds here to the population. That water runs straight down into SLC within 5-10 miles. So, not much chance for it to "filter", I suppose.
 

Green08

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Understood, but still miles away (hah) from I 70. Although weirdly, you don't hear about urine issues for the watershed in Colorado - I have heard about it in Utah. ???
I think this is geography at work. The Wasatch are the eastern boarder of the Great Basin. Precip around SLC never sees an ocean! Pollution is going to get concentrated in some sense. The various mountain recreation areas around SLC also concentrated into a single watershed.

Compare that to the Front Range. CO has the continental divide moving things out in both primary directions. Vail Pass and Hoosier Pass also further divide pollution from recreation in and around Summit County. It is a rather diverse, complex, and distributed water system. Concentration just does not happen in the same way.
 

Started at 53

Making fresh tracks
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I have one question I'd like to ask here: For those who have skied some of the resorts in question a couple days this season, vs. those who have skied them upwards of 90 days so far, who do people think might have a better grasp on how much busier things are compared to, say, the past 4 or 5 seasons?

Great point! It seems a lot of keyboard commandos who ski these places a few days think they are dialed in. :facepalm:

LCC/BCC in the summer are fine, you just gotta watch out for the people on bikes. Lots of people out hiking, but nowhere near the insanity of 3+ hours to drive up to Alta on a powder day.

OK, I don’t feel guilty about my boots being comfortable (different thread for laughs), but I might feel guilty for my 17 minute drive to the mountian. You guys are hardcore to put up with that crappy traffic.

As for today’s crowding????
I quit when I was 4th in the singles line today, who can handle that type of congestion :roflmao:
13009DBA-B567-463A-A9A0-A6841FDD15F9.jpeg


Kidding aside, that was after 15 runs and I called it a day, but it took 2 more runs to get back to my starting point...

It was a :yeah: day but not a :bestday:
 

Erik Timmerman

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OK, I don’t feel guilty about my boots being comfortable (different thread for laughs), but I might feel guilty for my 17 minute drive to the mountian. You guys are hardcore to put up with that crappy traffic.

There are some true warriors who make the drive from NYC to Stowe every weekend that is like 7 hrs. I salute every one of them. It's called "for the love of". Hats off to everyone sitting in LCC traffic, stranded on I-70, chaining up on Donner's Pass, you all rock.
 

LKLA

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There are some true warriors who make the drive from NYC to Stowe every weekend that is like 7 hrs. I salute every one of them. It's called "for the love of". Hats off to everyone sitting in LCC traffic, stranded on I-70, chaining up on Donner's Pass, you all rock.

We usually do it in under 6 hours - as long as my wife is distracted :D
 

Erik Timmerman

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We usually do it in under 6 hours - as long as my wife is distracted :D

One of the people working in Ski School worked an office job in mid-town, took a train every Friday to New Cannan or Greenwich or wherever her car was stashed and then drove up from there. She'd work Sat-Sun and have time for the Matterhorn and still made it to work on Monday morning. That is for the love.
 

Daniel

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LCC/BCC in the summer are fine, you just gotta watch out for the people on bikes. Lots of people out hiking, but nowhere near the insanity of 3+ hours to drive up to Alta on a powder day.

I don't completely agree with you. I reside between the mouths of BCC & LCC a short distance below Wasatch Blvd. and recreate frequently year round in both. Traffic during the summer (say on average between mid-June and mid-September) on weekends and holidays has steadily gotten worse over time and the negative trend has accelerated during the past five or six years. Ditto for weekdays but on a much less severe scale. In the case of the former, traffic in both directions can be continuous and steady at about 25 to 35 mph and this frequently goes on for several consecutive hours. I presume many of these vehicles have a destination they're headed to while others are just out for a scenic drive or are escaping the heat of the valley for a period of time; nonetheless, traffic is bumper to bumper but typically moves along in a fairly steady manner. It's true that it won't take one 3.5 hours to reach Alta from Wasatch Blvd., like can occasionally happen in the winter but it's no longer the carefree relaxing drive it typically used to be.

I road bike both canyons, as well as all the other nearby canyons. It's become increasingly popular for road bikers in the Cottonwoods to get their ride completed before traffic builds up in the morning, which for some means a pre-dawn departure/riding in the dark or by moonlight. I also hike, trail run, and climb peaks, utilizing the dozens of trails one can access from both canyons. Similar to resort skiing, one must get to trail heads earlier and earlier with each successive year to ensure a parking spot reasonably close to one's departure point. It's not unusual to complete a hike, run or climb and when leaving to drive home witness vehicles belonging to late-arrivers parked 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from the trail head along the road. I'm also seeing more and more of the canyon distance runners (people, mostly females, running down canyon along the road) starting in the dark to beat the traffic and the heat. It has become the norm for the campgrounds in the canyons to have the "Campgrounds Full" sign posted at their entrances regardless of the day of the week and the picnic grounds almost always appear to be at full or over capacity.

By the way, the Albion Basin summer road in LCC has been restricted in regard to vehicle traffic for many years due to overcrowding:
https://www.sltrib.com/news/environ...as-alpine-paradise-adjusts-to-growing-crowds/
 

Lake n Ski

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A major destination like AltaBird might not be interested in "just making it". One season is too small a sample size to make definitive conclusions, but if it's been as successful as all the complaining makes it seem, I think AltaBird thinks IKON affiliation has been good. They know people are buying these passes and if they ditch the affiliation the passholders will just choose to go to one of the other IKON areas when they come to SLC for vacation.

While skiers don't, the entities running resorts likely relish the crowds. AltaBird and Jackson probably don't NEED IKON, they WANT it, and to the extent that people keep showing up and they keep making money, they likely aren't concerned with the complaining of folks who don't like the change.

Mostly agree. Few of the resorts on IKON or EPIC actually "NEED" either pass. But as has been detailed others, it provides for likely improved and more stable revenue streams. I'm not sure of any business, skiing or not, that wouldn't want that. Sure, it may seem a bit greedy to many that they're "crowding" your personal ski experience with increased volume....But they're also allowing for a cheaper and broader ski experience as well. Pros/Cons. Love/Hate. C'est La Vie.
 
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