Ikon Pass Extends Dates with Offering Double Renewal Discounts and Adventure Assurance

[raytseng]

This extension is unlikely to make any difference to me. I would have already renewed our passes if I'd been happy with the "Adventure Assurance" option. But I don't like the open ended nature of the pricing of that option, so I'll probably hold on to my money for now. It's looking likely that international travel will be impractical next season, and I don't see the sense in putting a deposit on a 2021/22 pass now when the final price is unknown. If they changed the Adventure Assurance option such that I could defer my pass for no additional cost then I'd buy our passes right away.

I agree with what Phil said above. Feels like Ikon/Alterra is a bit slow to understand the full implications of what's happening in the world right now. Hopefully they figure it out soon.

The extension to June 16 is just a 3 weeks extension and barely meaningful at all, not even a full month.

But reading between the lines, the meta meaning of so short of a extension is that this is just overtime for them to finish the changes that Rusty mentioned in the podcast. So dont take this as their final early offer, they need the extra 3 weeks to either fine tune whatever they hinted at or for market clarity. Just check back in 3weeks and lets really see their pass improvements.

 

[Ski&ride]

This extension is unlikely to make any difference to me.

The extension to June 16 is just a 3 weeks extension and barely meaningful at all, not even a full month.

Same here. Too little to tempt me.

 

[Ski&ride]

Thing is, if they indeed operate a full season, it doesn’t matter that many or most people might be averse to the risks of travel to ski resorts. If you are OK with the risks, or are comfortable with the risk mitigation that you take as well as what the resorts do, then it could be an amazing ski experience.

I think that’s a false logic. Just because people are not traveling doesn’t mean no one is skiing. It merely redistributes the skiers. Granted, if you live in a low density tourist destination, then the lack of tourist does mean less crowd. But if you live in area of high skier density, they not “traveling” away means MORE crowds in your area, not less.

If they do some sort of daily limit, you risk not able to ski due to the limit. If they don’t do daily limit, you’ll have to be ok with the crowd. I don’t see anything “amazing ski experience” either way.

The only way you get an uncrowned resort on any day of you wishing to ski, is for everyone so poor they can’t afford to ski!

 

[pchewn]

Thing is, if they indeed operate a full season, it doesn’t matter that many or most people might be averse to the risks of travel to ski resorts. If you are OK with the risks, or are comfortable with the risk mitigation that you take as well as what the resorts do, then it could be an amazing ski experience. If the conditions are good and the crowds non-existent, isn’t that what we kind of dream about? In an ironic twist, the pandemic period, or “mitigated pandemic” period, or post-pandemic period could the best skiing many of us might have in a long time.

I think crowding will be minimal, once the hard-core among us are done overwhelming A Basin or other places that are first to open. I image much of the casual skiing public has already written off next season. So that might make me decide to jump on the pass, more so than if there had been no pandemic, than if I knew everything was fine and to expect serious crowds next season.

And it’s nonetheless saddening that it might took something this bad, this serious, this consequential, for the kind of uncrowded skiing experience we all say we want, at the resorts we want to visit.

I really like your optimism. I see it the same way. My normal pass is the FUSION pass (Timberline Lodge, Mt Hood Skibowl, Powder Alliance). I'm hoping next season to go to White Pass, Mission Ridge, and Silver Mountain on the Powder Alliance.

FUSION pass is not even available to purchase and won't be until September 1st ... so there is no decision to make yet for me.

 

[surfandski]

This is a smart move by Alterra. I'm a potential Ikon pass buyer but in my own case I have not bought season passes for the family for next year. Seeing the premature openings happening around the country in states with rising cases makes me think next season is going to be heavily impacted by the pandemic. Since I also have no faith in our federal leadership I expect we're not going to be rid of coronavirus until a vaccine comes along. To buy a set of passes in the face of that is something I will not do. To pay 40% or 50% more later once the threat has reduced but prices have risen will also be a hard pill to swallow.

The one factor that makes me more likely to buy passes is that the state of Colorado, Summit County, and Arapahoe Basin do all seem to be on the same page with me as to how much lock down is needed. You can be sure I won't be traveling to any state that values business survival over human survival but Colorado seems to be striking the right balance. Hopefully that will lead to a tolerable situation next season where I won't feel as if I'm endangering my family by indulging a hobby. For now though I'm on the sidelines for the foreseeable future.

We are definitely renewing our Ikons and would have bought our family passes by the May 27th deadline but I guess we can wait a couple weeks. Honestly, I'd be surprised if my wife and I haven't already been exposed and just didn't know it, but certainly by next ski season we will have so we plan to do several trips out West both driving and flying with our 2 kids.

Phil, do you have a metric for the average age of all pugski members? I can't remember if we enter that information when we register or not. I am regularly on all types of forums from kayaking, motocross, sports car racing, MTB, guitar, aviation, etc and I've noticed that there appears to be a much more cautious take on the virus here than elsewhere and I'm curious why that is and if age understandably plays a roll. 6-8 weeks ago I think a lot of us were still afraid and trying to wrap our arms around how at risk "the average" American was before the stats came out. It's obviously still deathly serious to a very small % of society who will indeed need to be very cautious and stay home but I think the majority of Americans will have been exposed and moved on to the "new normal" by next Winter. I think we'll be surprised at how much of society will be comfortable with RESPONSIBLY hitting the slopes and doing other activities. Recently, UFC's 3 separate events went off without a hitch in Florida, racing and professional sports are starting back up the end of this month and more states are opening up (thankfully restaurants get green lighted here in NC on Friday and we'll be going out to support our local businesses) so I think most of the people who are "likely" (there will always be outliers) not at risk will be exposed to it and gotten on with their lives, which will include skiing for many of us.

I don't mean to sound insensitive to your views as we all have to weigh the personal risk/reward and decide what we are comfortable with, and that's totally cool. My mom who has about 0% chance in surviving if she gets it has decided that in her old age, she'd rather live each day to the fullest rather than hiding out and hoping not to die so her and my dad are heading out in their RV next week for a Summer road trip (against the advice of my sister and I). I don't know if many people here listen to the Joe Rogan Podcast (largest podcast on youtube) but this is a video that everyone from the far left, to the far right should watch on how media is shaping our views of this thing. Though Joe (and his buddies) are admittedly extremely liberal, he is also very balanced and accepting of all views which is why people across the spectrum watch him and why he has such a strong following. He was at the UFC shows and shares his perspective on that and a number of things.

 

[Ski&ride]

I think the majority of Americans will have been exposed and moved on to the "new normal" by next Winter. I think we'll be surprised at how much of society will be comfortable with RESPONSIBLY hitting the slopes and doing other activities.

Wait, if “majority of Americans will have been exposed”, why the need to “responsibly” hitting the slopes?

Do you not have faith in your own assumption of “majority of Americans will have been exposed”?

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

I have concerns about the need for "reservations" to get on the slopes. SoCal is pretty population intensive and it could be really hard to get enough days in to make it worthwhile. I expect to ski; I'm just not sure it's worth buying an Ikon pass. It's only worth it if I believe that I will be able to get some slope time at Mammoth and/or Squaw. They are both drivable from SoCal but I'm really unsure of staying in AirBnBs and with two dogs that's really my only option until spring.

 

[pete]

What I read was the deferral can start on September 10 up until December 10. Sadly, they will only credit the value of the pass. I wish they would give you a 21/22 pass not just credit today’s pass.

yeah, agree. Still can't decide as I suspect this coming season will be limited, and my likely delaying till 21/22. If that the case, then I may as well not front my money for an interest free loan to IKON/Alterra when it may be I lose any discounts today. The $100 off a lift may likely be lost next year so .. why front?

If the pass was offered saying .. delay use for the 21/22 at current discounted price, then I might bite but if leaning to delaying, I see little benefit especially if come 21/22 season, destination options change for those I wouldn't be able to use.

Money in my pocket now is preferable ... too, being fatalistic, be nice if they said .. if you die, your designated person can have your refund!

 

[fatbob]

I thought I heard Rusty Gregory on that podcast say that there would be something else and that the end of this phase would likely not change - yet all that has been done is this phase has been extended.

While I was initially enthusiastic about the assurance programme being fair# ( which I think probably is still the case for drive up visitors) the flaws in it are too much for me given the likely challenges of air travel meaning I am highly probable to need to defer it. In which case a cash credit for the 21/22 season against an unknown priced pass with no loyalty/renewal discount is nothing more than me having made a free loan to Alterra with a non zero risk that I will not be able to redeem that loan. Make it a rollover of the thing I have bought i.e. the pass and I'm back being interested again.

#In hindsight the perception of fairness was relative to the unfairness/ball drop of the initial "non-refundable all risk on you" line accompanying the campaign relaunch. Since then Vail have clearly upped the stakes better.

I think Ikon is a great product in normal times but to make it work for me overall given all the travel costs) I need to get 2 trips out of it. And I really can't see from here or June how that is going to happen.

More generally travel insurance premiums may make skiing in the US a non starter for international visitors for some time.

 

[raytseng]

i don't see why people are valuing the vail offer as so much better. Say the resorts are still technically "open" but air travel is still overly risky and somehow the "open" experience is way restricted beyond what you expect as enjoyable.
You have no recourse for your epicpass insurance if they stay technically "open" whereas with the ikon you can at least punt your money to next year on your terms if/when they announce what skiing will look like.

Again if anyone misread my prev post, I interpret this awkward 3week extension as a high signal that they will be announcing those hinted new changes soon so just hold your judgement until theb.
(If it was meant to push sales they would have let the May deadline come and go to push urgency, not announce before. And typically a real transition to a new phase would be at least 6week new buy period if not more. This 3week extension annoumced before the deadline is to just give a pause).

 

[surfandski]

Wait, if “majority of Americans will have been exposed”, why the need to “responsibly” hitting the slopes?

Do you not have faith in your own assumption of “majority of Americans will have been exposed”?

Because unlike other viruses of the past, this thing is extremely nasty to a very small % of people so I'm already, and will continue to take, extra precautions around elderly people whether that's giving them more than the 6' space so that they feel comfortable in a supermarket, or allowing them to ride a lift solo if that's the responsible thing to do. Just because a lot of us aren't afraid of this thing personally doesn't mean we can't be mindful that a lot of people still are, and rightfully so for some of them. So I can still be "responsible" in how I choose to interact with people. For instance, I'd happily ride a lift with a stranger if that stranger is equally comfortable and if it's not breaking any resort rules but if the rules are still very cautious next season, or if someone in the singles line isn't comfortable riding with me, I totally respect that and realize lines will likely move slower at the start of next season as we figure this out.

I do think Ikon/Epic numbers will be way down as many people may still feel the risk/reward isn't worth it for an activity that is a luxury. No one is going to pressure them to go ski as they have the right to stay home but I do think a large number of people will weigh their personal risk/reward and be comfortable. Our family fits into that category so we will be buying passes.

 

[skix]

I'm curious why that is and if age understandably plays a roll. 6-8 weeks ago I think a lot of us were still afraid and trying to wrap our arms around how at risk "the average" American was before the stats came out. It's obviously still deathly serious to a very small % of society who will indeed need to be very cautious and stay home but I think the majority of Americans will have been exposed and moved on to the "new normal" by next Winter.

My age and the age of my family does play a role in how seriously I take this. But I don't share your belief that the disease is deadly to only a very small percentage of Americans. I also don't share your belief that a majority of Americans will have been exposed by next winter. Infection is still very low across the country, it's low in Colorado and other ski resort states, and is unlikely to be anywhere near herd immunity by winter.

Truthfully, it's the optimistic attitudes of others that are my biggest concerns. I think a colossal blunder is now happening with reopening states and I expect deaths to continue at an elevated level for the foreseeable future.

While it may be true that only a small percentage of Americans overall die from coronavirus what should concern you more is that a much larger proportion of adult Americans either die or have critical health issues that may be permanent. It's great that children seem to be spared but on the other hand the resilience of the very young to this disease cause the overall numbers to understate the danger to adults by swelling the denominator.

None of that of course takes into account that catching the disease makes you a danger to others. Since so many young Americans are not taking it seriously I have to take it that much more seriously.

Bottom line is that I very much doubt I'll get much skiing in next season.

 

[Philpug]

Phil, do you have a metric for the average age of all pugski members?

I don't have the age breakdown of the members, it is not required when registering, just that members are over 13. If we look at Google numbers of people who view the site, it is actually my balanced.

18-24 31%
25-34 26%
35-44 24%
45-54 17.5%
55-64 19.5%
65+ 23.5%
Almost a reverse bell.

I will say, the most impressive number with the demographic is that we have 22.5% female readership, that number is more than three times the average for a multigender sports/lifestyle site.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Everyone's situation is different so there is no right or wrong answer. Leisure and travel have a lot of headwinds thus the extended and sweetened promos.

Our kids are getting closer to becoming adults so might as well make the most of time while we can. It will be different for sure but in the northeast we are used to an occasional off season , and we still have a great time.

 

[Ski&ride]

While it may be true that only a small percentage of Americans overall die from coronavirus what should concern you more is that a much larger proportion of adult Americans either die or have critical health issues that may be permanent.

When thousands (or tens of thousands) are dying, there’s no room to talk about permanent health issues brought on by the disease to the otherwise healthy. Skiing? Only if your lungs are still working well enough to walk from the parking lot to the lift AFTER surviving Covid.

Like the dead, they’re only tragic to the individual and their families. The former because there’re so many. The latter because there’re “relatively” few.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll ski. It’s probably a lot safer on the slope, or even on the lift line, than in most people’s office! But that doesn’t mean I’ll buy a pass. Not until I see how the social distancing affects pass usage. Right now, there’s NO provision to allow a cancellation in case the resort is technically “open” but only a few hundred can get in through reservation/lottery.

 

[Mothertucker]

FWIW, AMC has at least one golf course open, another tomorrow, and has announced opening lift served mountain biking on June 12th, so that bodes well for when the snow flies in autumn.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

FWIW, AMC has at least one golf course open, another tomorrow, and has announced opening lift served mountain biking on June 12th, so that bodes well for when the snow flies in autumn.

I agree. I think the bike parks give the resorts time to figure out some of the kinks in operating next winter. Truthfully, I think one of the biggest issues is going to be parking. They pack them in like sardines.

 

[Unpiste]

I do agree, if there was some sort of "opt out" or insurance, people would be more likely to commit now. Between Ikon and Epic...I think Vail is reading and reacting to the times much better. I have to say, if asked prior, I would have bet it would have been the other way around.

I'll admit, I'm pretty surprised they only extended the deadline (so far) rather than doing something to compete with Vail's offer. At the same time, I'm still very skeptical Vail won't go out of their way to just barely avoid triggering the terms of their own offer, unless forced to do so. (Yes, I'm still a little bitter about Northstar parking. I don't easily forget that sort of thing, and it also just occurred to me that with COVID-19, parking shuttles are now even more of an issue.)

Personally, I still prefer IKON's approach of leaving the decision up to the customer, even if they are still requiring that decision to be made before the season gets going. I certainly don't expect any surprises along the lines of this past March, but that still leaves plenty of room.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Ikon/Epic advance sales must be a small fraction of what they expect and depend upon. Postponing deadlines and rollover credits are the equivalent to pulling the goalie when you are down three.

I think ski areas will limit capacity enough to make it difficult to ski often enough, or if they have full capacity they will need to reduce prices to fill the place up. Either way, I'm not buying.

I need to do two western trips to make a pass pay, so it's an easy call for me.

dm

 

[Wasatchman]

I don't have the age breakdown of the members, it is not required when registering, just that members are over 13. If we look at Google numbers of people who view the site, it is actually my balanced.

18-24 31%
25-34 26%
35-44 24%
45-54 17.5%
55-64 19.5%
65+ 23.5%
Almost a reverse bell.

I will say, the most impressive number with the demographic is that we have 22.5% female readership, that number is more than three times the average for a multigender sports/lifestyle site.

Except I think females comprise half of skiers these days so still opportunity for some upside in your female readership.

But I think female readership on TGR would be pretty close to zero, so you're crushing it that way