Ikon Pass Extends Dates with Offering Double Renewal Discounts and Adventure Assurance

[tball]

Ikon gave full credits for those that never used the pass once. The caveat is you also couldn't have ever used the pass for prior year spring skiing either. If a pass was used even once (including prior year spring skiing offer) then you got the same discount as everyone else.

As others saying, You are missing they gave free passes to all of those zeroday people. So in that case if you happened to chose Ikon in 19-20, that turned out even better for you than Epic.

Are referring to anyone in particular, or is this hypothetical?

I mean, someone who spends that much money for a pass with the intention of only using it late in the season maybe has the wrong pass.

In any event, it's really not about fairness. Nothing about the early closure of ski resorts is fair, much less the impact of the pandemic on any facet of life. I think it's just about how much incentive is enough to choose to buy a pass. If someone feels it is a fair deal for themselves, that's all they are saying.

Thank you all. I didn't know about the free pass for zero-day people. (Funny, I wonder if the term "zero-day" had ever been outside the world of computer security before this even nastier sort of virus hit.)

@David Chaus I didn't have an IKON Pass, but this isn't hypothetical. I have an A-basin Pass with zero days. I typically ski there April through June. They haven't announced how they will compensate season pass holders yet. I'd be happy with a pass for next year. Not as happy about 80%.

As for fairness, I think the issue is more about contract law than what's perceived as fair. The legalities have been discussed in the A-basin reopening thread, and arguments can also seen in the class-action suits.

What I haven't seen discussed is how, IMO, it would seem to be fairly easy to prevail in a small claims case if not given appropriate compensation.

 

[TheArchitect]

I was planning on getting two unlimited, so $400. BUT...now that I've screwed the pooch I may just get two base passes at $699 each plus the Aspen/JH add-on for $150 and still come in $150 each under the unlimited. So, $1698 instead of $1998. Still a bonehead move on my part.

It's a reasonable mistake. Given current events one would think they'd make an exception and give you the discount. I'll be annoyed at them on your behalf if they don't!

 

[Ski&ride]

In the mean time, Epic pass holders got an email to remind them they don’t have to hurry. They have till September 7.

I’m quite sure it’s got to do with the little “pressure” of IKON deadline (for those who had intended to switch).

 

[raytseng]

In the mean time, Epic pass holders got an email to remind them they don’t have to hurry. They have till September 7.

I’m quite sure it’s got to do with the little “pressure” of IKON deadline (for those who had intended to switch).

Given the quality of facebook comments I've read through on ikon and epic, I take it partially as a dig at their competitor, but also real actual concern that some people don't have the mental aptitude to distinguish between the passes and companies.

 

[dbostedo]

What I haven't seen discussed is how, IMO, it would seem to be fairly easy to prevail in a small claims case if not given appropriate compensation.

Now I'm curious. I would have assumed that for a pass sale they have terms and conditions you sign up for, that explicitly don't guarantee any particular length of season or open months. If that's the case, then I'd assume the opposite - that you'd lose in small claims court. But I have no idea what the T's and C's are for their passes. Do you have that info?

 

[raytseng]

Now I'm curious. I would have assumed that for a pass sale they have terms and conditions you sign up for, that explicitly don't guarantee any particular length of season or open months. If that's the case, then I'd assume the opposite - that you'd lose in small claims court. But I have no idea what the T's and C's are for their passes. Do you have that info?

Just my thoughts. I didnt do any research into the t and cs.
I think there is no case, but the class action lawyers will give it a try.
As a counter example from regular times, should you get suspended or banned from the resort for a policy issue, you don't get partial refund in that scenario.

The logical corollary then is: if you didn't have a case for refund in a pass suspension and you lost days even while the resort stayed open, you don't have a case if the whole resort closes and everybody lost days.
So I think there is clear language on no refunds for any reason. There is probably fine print on exactly what a pass actually is and who "owns" it which will blanket cover all scenarios. assumed but not confirmed.

 

[David Chaus]

@David Chaus I didn't have an IKON Pass, but this isn't hypothetical. I have an A-basin Pass with zero days. I typically ski there April through June. They haven't announced how they will compensate season pass holders yet. I'd be happy with a pass for next year. Not as happy about 80%.

As for fairness, I think the issue is more about contract law than what's perceived as fair. The legalities have been discussed in the A-basin reopening thread, and arguments can also seen in the class-action suits.

What I haven't seen discussed is how, IMO, it would seem to be fairly easy to prevail in a small claims case if not given appropriate compensation.

I see your point, I would also be pissed if I spent $ for a pass and didn't get any use out of it. However when A basin sells you a pass they are offering access to lifts throughout the whole season, and they have no way of knowing if you have another pass somewhere else. As far as A basin is concerned, they offered you the opportunity to use the pass, and you didn't use it. I don't see where there is a case for small claims. It would be a different story if you had a pass which was only for the spring, and therefore you had no opportunity to use it.

 

[tball]

Now I'm curious. I would have assumed that for a pass sale they have terms and conditions you sign up for, that explicitly don't guarantee any particular length of season or open months. If that's the case, then I'd assume the opposite - that you'd lose in small claims court. But I have no idea what the T's and C's are for their passes. Do you have that info?

It's the purchase contract they are violating. @nay makes the case better than I could here:

Colorado - A-Basin Reopening on Wednesday, May 27

@nay -- i think @Ski&ride was being pedantic with the term "profit" based on the proceeding conversation. The $99 is revenue, not profit. Your complaints are still valid and the crux of the matter. (And IMHO right -- though I struggle a bit with the IKON/Abasin distinction, day ticket sales...

www.pugski.com

I dug up the email I received after purchase. Here are some points of the deal they made with me that they didn't keep:

• The A-Basin Spring Double Down Pass gives you unlimited, unrestricted skiing and riding at A-Basin for the rest of the 2018-19 season and the entire 2019-20 season.
• Purchase an adult spring double-down pass before May 1, 2019, to receive 8, single-day “Super Friend” lift tickets at $65 each for your best friends! Purchase on or after May 1 and receive 4 Super Friend tickets. (Super Friend tickets must be purchased at the A-Basin ticket window and are only included with adult full season passes; valid for the 2019-20 season.)

I get they couldn't keep their end of the deal, but that doesn't mean they don't need to compensate me for what I didn't receive.

Some details that are probably better suited for the A-basin thread, but whatever.

One is when they reopened, they sold a portion of the limited capacity of 600 skiers to all-comers for $99. That meant that season pass holders who already paid for access didn't get those spots.

Even worse for me, A-basin would sell FOUR $99 tickets to a purchase drawing winner, while they would only TWO pass holders access if they won.

Only allowing two pass holders to ski while selling four spots to others really pissed me off. It was impossible for me to ski with our twins as we did five times the previous summer break. Which should I leave home? This was the first day of summer break 2019:

 

[dbostedo]

It's the purchase contract they are violating. @nay makes the case better than I could here:

Colorado - A-Basin Reopening on Wednesday, May 27

@nay -- i think @Ski&ride was being pedantic with the term "profit" based on the proceeding conversation. The $99 is revenue, not profit. Your complaints are still valid and the crux of the matter. (And IMHO right -- though I struggle a bit with the IKON/Abasin distinction, day ticket sales...

www.pugski.com

I dug up the email I received after purchase. Here are some points of the deal they made with me that they didn't keep:

• The A-Basin Spring Double Down Pass gives you unlimited, unrestricted skiing and riding at A-Basin for the rest of the 2018-19 season and the entire 2019-20 season.
• Purchase an adult spring double-down pass before May 1, 2019, to receive 8, single-day “Super Friend” lift tickets at $65 each for your best friends! Purchase on or after May 1 and receive 4 Super Friend tickets. (Super Friend tickets must be purchased at the A-Basin ticket window and are only included with adult full season passes; valid for the 2019-20 season.)

I get they couldn't keep their end of the deal, but that doesn't mean they don't need to compensate me for what I didn't receive.

Some details that are probably better suited for the A-basin thread, but whatever.

One is when they reopened, they sold a portion of the limited capacity of 600 skiers to all-comers for $99. That meant that season pass holders who already paid for access didn't get those spots.

Even worse for me, A-basin would sell FOUR $99 tickets to a purchase drawing winner, while they would only TWO pass holders access if they won.

Only allowing two pass holders to ski while selling four spots to others really pissed me off. It was impossible for me to ski with our twins as we did five times the previous summer break. Which should I leave home? This was the first day of summer break 2019:

Fair enough... but that hardly qualifies, by my read, as "fairly easy to prevail in a small claims case". It's esoteric and completely debateable, and I have no idea what the laws are. You're basically saying that you paid for access, then they added restrictions and sold that access differently, to different people. But I have no idea what the legalities there are - I don't find it clear at all. Perhaps it's perfectly legal to change access based on unusual circumstances.

And again, I still find it odd that in a lot of ways, they might have been better off not opening at all, rather than creating a situation where they tried to do their best and that made even more people unhappy. It's unfortunate.

 

[raytseng]

I will point out based on their chair sales illegal lottery (posted below), their legal oversight is not so strong; so you do have a slim chance that they screwed up.
https://www.pugski.com/threads/what...e-of-repurposed-lift-chairs.19891/post-490557
I didn't update that thread, but they since dumped that illegal lottery scheme and switched to a legal sweepstakes, but shows whoever is in charge isn't running their crazy ideas past the lawyers first.


I pulled up the the 20-21 ikonPass Terms and conditions that comes up when you checkout. Not sure if it's exactly the same as 19-20. But here's the loophole basically giving them blanket "sole discretion" for "any other reason" and "other things" which are big enough loopholes to drive a truck through:

The Pass does not guarantee access to the Resort(s) for a minimum number of days in each season or that each Resort will be open for a minimum number of days each season. Use of the Pass to access the Resorts is subject to, among other things, the Resort(s) being open and having the capability and/or capacity to grant access. Each Resort reserves the right to close or limit access to the Resort for weather, safety, or any other reason at its sole discretion with or without notice during each season.

If the Abasin legal terms don't have that similar section, maybe you got a case. The best you gonna get though is some lawyers are going to get rich, not you, and you may get what, 8/100th of your pass back, then less the lawyer fees? Not to mention loading a resort that you may have liked with this debt now making it worse off.

Would also like to point out, this is also the ikonpass thread, I don't want to go off on a tangent on abasin pass legalities, I think you can do that in that Abasin thread you linked if you like.

 

[tball]

Fair enough... but that hardly qualifies, by my read, as "fairly easy to prevail in a small claims case". It's esoteric and completely debateable, and I have no idea what the laws are. You're basically saying that you paid for access, then they added restrictions and sold that access differently, to different people. But I have no idea what the legalities there are - I don't find it clear at all. Perhaps it's perfectly legal to change access based on unusual circumstances.

And again, I still find it odd that in a lot of ways, they might have been better off not opening at all, rather than creating a situation where they tried to do their best and that made even more people unhappy. It's unfortunate.

@Chris V. lays out the legal argument in the Vail class action thread:

The correct view of the situation is actually not that there was a breach of contract, but instead that restitution may be due because of the bargained-for services not being delivered. There is a doctrine in contract law of impossibility of performance. The conclusion here would probably be that performance of the contract by Vail was made impossible by government action--or by nature, the result would be the same either way. It's true that Vail had no choice in the matter. It's a no fault doctrine.

In the case of impossibility of performance that could not have been anticipated by either party, the party who has parted with value is entitled to restitution. The goal of restitution is to put the parties back in the positions they were in before entering into the contract. So if you hire a contractor to build you a house on your lot in Malibu, you pay money in advance, and your land slides into the ocean before the contractor has started work, so that it's impossible to go forward with the project, the contractor can't keep your money. The contractor has to pay you back the money, but you have no claim for any additional damages.

Where just a portion of the services bargained for have been rendered, it gets fuzzier.

To those of you who think it's laughable that anyone should want a refund, would you feel differently about a customer who had bought a season pass just three days before the resorts closed?

Right now there are plenty of other real examples of large companies trying to avoid refunding customers. Some airlines were telling people that they wouldn't refund money paid for canceled flights, only offer future credit. They were telling people that they should instead take a flight three days later, when those customers had planned just two-day round trips. Ticketmaster has started telling people that if a concert is postponed nine months, they won't refund money paid for tickets, that the ticket holders' only choice is to go to the concert nine months later, which would obviously be nothing like what they built their plans on.

How do y'all feel about those situations?

In the end, it's a question of whose ox will be gored.

So, another question--how many of you are putting down money for 2020-21 Epic or Ikon passes? Do you have enough faith in Vail Resorts or Alterra?

Any lawyers on the board are apt to take the bashing going on personally. To anyone taking part in this, if one day you need a lawyer yourself, you might not get much sympathy at the time.

I do agree that there's a long-running syndrome of class action settlements that are worthless to the class members.

Makes sense to my non-legal mind. And that would seem to apply to every ski area selling season passes that closed early.

The best you gonna get though is some lawyers are going to get rich, not you, and you may get what, 8/100th of your pass back, then less the lawyer fees? Not to mention loading a resort that you may have liked with this debt now making it worse off.

Ah, that's where you are off base and the beauty of small claims court. No lawyer needed! Fees to file and serve the papers are less than $100, and you'll get that back when you win.

I expect A-basin will give me a fair deal without going to the trouble.

If I had a single day on a $1099 IKON Pass and just got a $200 discount, I'd probably file a small claims case. 99% sure they would settle for what you ask (plus fees) rather than pay lawyer to show up at small claims court. A season pass for next season seems fair to me.

Edit: someone please correct me if I'm off base about small claims court, especially going up against a big company. Never done that, but I've been a couple of times long ago over unpaid rent and damages from tenants and it was really straightforward.

 

[oswaldr2]

After two years of IKON I decided to pass this year. Instead, I'm targeting a more rural, non-destination (i.e. "locals") resort for a long stay. Won't get the variety I'm used to, but at the end of the day it's about good snow & good turns, which can be had on less well-known hills.

amen to that

 

[Pdub]

Another issue will be getting to these resorts. I was planning a July visit to Snowmass but our flights have been canceled twice and even though there is no change fee you still have to pay up for the higher fare on the less convenient flight with extra stops.

My Ikon ski trips are 4 day affairs where good reliable flight schedules are absolutely critical to getting my 4 days of skiing in. I am concerned this will be impossible if the airlines don't regain some of their lost volume.

 

[princo]

Looks like the price increase from yesterday was that instead of giving a $200 discount for previous full pass holders, they now get $100. So the price itself didn't go up, just the discount got smaller.
@Andy Mink : You may need to redo the math for you pass options.

 

[Pequenita]

@Chris V. lays out the legal argument in the Vail class action thread:



Makes sense to my non-legal mind. And that would seem to apply to every ski area selling season passes that closed early.


Ah, that's where you are off base and the beauty of small claims court. No lawyer needed! Fees to file and serve the papers are less than $100, and you'll get that back when you win.

I expect A-basin will give me a fair deal without going to the trouble.

If I had a single day on a $1099 IKON Pass and just got a $200 discount, I'd probably file a small claims case. 99% sure they would settle for what you ask (plus fees) rather than pay lawyer to show up at small claims court. A season pass for next season seems fair to me.

Edit: someone please correct me if I'm off base about small claims court, especially going up against a big company. Never done that, but I've been a couple of times long ago over unpaid rent and damages from tenants and it was really straightforward.

My rough take is that it will be always be difficult to prevail on a breach of contract lawsuit based on the terms of a pass agreement, and the best a purchaser can do is get someone with authority to convey information that the purchaser relies on to purchase a pass, to the purchaser’s detriment (promissory estoppel for the legal nerds). I don’t think any court would find that using one day on a pass constitutes a breach of contract, but most businesses will as a matter of good will do something to compensate for that scenario if it was caused by something the business sort of could have controlled.

 

[Tricia]

Here's more info on the Ikon "Zero-Day Credit", which probably applies to a minority number of people on the pugski forums. Unfortunately, if you were a low utilizer, this does not do you much good. For example, if you only used your pass one day, you would have received the same "double renewal discount" as someone who put 100 days on their pass.

See bellow:

Alterra Rolls Unused 2019-20 Ikon Passes Into Equivalent 2020-21 Passes
Skiers who scanned at least one day get same renewal discount as everyone else

skiing.substack.com

I know of at least a couple peole who will benefit from the Zero Use Roll

 

[neonorchid]

I know of at least a couple peole who will benefit from the Zero Use Roll

Me.
Actually, I took out the insurance option and can file a claim for a refund due to a series of injuries leading up to the shutdown. Or do nothing and take the 19/20 - 20/21 rollover which would be fine if they once again honor the zero-day rollover into the 21/22 season in the event I'm not comfortable with ski travel during the 20/21 season.
I'm not clear on if the IKON 20/21 zero use rollover policy will apply to my already rolled over from 19/20 pass, there is nothing on the IKON site indicating that it won't.

 

[raytseng]

Me.
Actually, I took out the insurance option and can file a claim for a refund due to a series of injuries leading up to the shutdown. Or do nothing and take the 19/20 - 20/21 rollover which would be fine if they once again honor the zero-day rollover into the 21/22 season in the event I'm not comfortable with ski travel during the 20/21 season.
I'm not clear on if the IKON 20/21 zero use rollover policy will apply to my already rolled over from 19/20 pass, there is nothing on the IKON site indicating that it won't.

Because there is the self-elected Defer benefit, it covers the need for having another zero-day policy.

You can just hold the Defer option in your pocket, and on the last day of the defer window April 11th, you should remember to choose to defer, then the $ of what you paid in 19/20 becomes $ credit you can spend on 21-22 passes.
Perhaps Alterra will be nice and just auto-elect the Defer for zeroday people who don't select on april 11 or clarify that later. But they don't have to technically do that, based on the terms they put out so far.
It would be a huge mistake if people in this situation to forget to exercise this deferral on April 11th and lose out basically due to a clerical issue.

It reminds me of the Park City lease where Powdr also forgot to renew their sweetheart lease by the deadline leading it to be taken over by Vail.

 

[Ski&ride]

You can just hold the Defer option in your pocket, and on the last day of the defer window April 11th, you should remember to choose to defer, then the $ of what you paid in 19/20 becomes $ credit you can spend on 21-22 passes.

But by January or February, you should know how the skiing, AND traveling will be like.

Anyone who’s not comfortable traveling by then, there’s little reason to wait. It wouldn’t magically get back to normal by April. And even if it does, you only get to use it for 1/3 of the season. You’re better off deferring it to 21/22. What can one hope to gain by waiting till April?

 

[Wasatchman]

I know of at least a couple peole who will benefit from the Zero Use Roll

Whew. That means we can count on pugski.com operating at least another year.