I want to play around with binding position

[DanoT]

You are not seeing pics because they are not really for retail I will get some pics the next time i see them. Either way. i would still choose the Attack and even the Warden demo over it.

I have heard from my boss, who just got back from the Vancouver Ski Industry Show, that for 2018 Attack bindings will have a mechanical sliding anti-friction device making the bindings not just WTR but also able to accommodate a lug sole Alpine Touring boot. I am not sure if the slider will be on both recreational and demo bindings or just the demo.

 

[Philpug]

I have heard from my boss, who just got back from the Vancouver Ski Industry Show, that for 2018 Attack bindings will have a mechanical sliding anti-friction device making the bindings not just WTR but also able to accommodate a lug sole Alpine Touring boot. I am not sure if the slider will be on both recreational and demo bindings or just the demo.

Double check, I don't think it is MNC, just WTR/Gripsole.

 

[Monique]

I just saw an ad in a Powder magazine (not sure which month) that specifically advertised Attack 14s that work with MNC. Is that what we're talking about?

https://www.levelninesports.com/tyrolia-attack-14-at-ski-bindings-2017

 

[mdf]

This thread made me realize I could fiddle with my mount position. My new-to-me skis came with demo Griffon's, which I found really easy to adjust.
So what is the mount point theory? Further forward does...... Back does.....what ?

 

[Ron]

This thread made me realize I could fiddle with my mount position. My new-to-me skis came with demo Griffon's, which I found really easy to adjust.
So what is the mount point theory? Further forward does...... Back does.....what ?

In general more forward will make the ski more pivoty on off-piste oriented skis. It can also help a skier who is a little back to learn how to access and use the sidecut. Moving back will make the ski less hooky, feel a little longer and on a off-piste ski, it can help with tip dive. there are occasions when moving a binding back will actually enable you to access the sidecut better especially on a tapered tip design.

 

[ARL67]

I live in flat-land Ontario, Canada, and my small hometown of 130,000 has a ski/cycle shop
The mythical new Marker demo binding with levers was just spotted there this afternoon.
Here is the Squire 11 Demo

 

[ski otter 2]

I use Marker Schizos and demos because the changes in mount point settings are more precise: you can adjust from 1 mm on up, no gaps because of the usually uneven slot jumps on a lever-adjusted demo binding. (An even uniformity is valuable often for mounting point adjustments, while not needed for boot size adjustments, the normal use for demo bindings, after all.)

I have Marker Griffon Schizos on skis from 84 to 120mm, happily, and prefer them to Demo bindings of any sort, especially if I'm on a ski I may want to adjust for mounting point depending on conditions; but also for just finding a single sweet spot. (Initially, I was just looking for each ski's sweet spot for me - I lucked into finding that I often had two or three different, great skis hidden in the same ski model.)

I find that wider skis are more likely to have multiple sweet spots in mounting point: generally, forward more turny, back more stable, to a point, depending on the ski. And often you can adjust for the amount of tip drive you want to come into play, less (move forward) or more (move back, to a point). (But @Ron post above is also true, in my experience.)

Marker Schizos are precise and easy to use. They sometimes come with a plastic Phillips 1" screwdriver that's useless; but a very short (~2"), standard, stocky, straight wide blade screwdriver that fits in a pocket works very well - best. The slot fits easily into the one big Phillips slot at the front of the bindings, and the turns are easy, requiring little effort, even in a blizzard - one adjustment for the entire binding. You can see the results on a scale printed on top of the binding's rail track. I often change mount point at the top or bottom of the ski lift, on the fly. It takes only a few minutes, quick.

In my experience with over a dozen of these bindings - they are very dependable. Shop guys tell me they don't see these coming in for repair much, if at all.

On narrower skis (76-98mm) I've often used demo bindings, usually Marker Griffins, lately. (On such narrower skis, I'm often more likely to find just one sweet spot, for me. )

Squires or Griffons for either Marker demos or Schizos should work for the OP (Griffons din 4-13 or 14; Squires 3-11, and cheaper, but not as durable, probably).

The screwdriver for Marker demos is much longer than for the Schizo, and a more exact fit is needed - harder in the cold, and more effort turning - for the demos than than for the Schizos. I usually adjust these the night before or at the adjustment table or area tuning shop, if at all, once I find a "sweet spot."

 

[AmyPJ]

In general more forward will make the ski more pivoty on off-piste oriented skis. It can also help a skier who is a little back to learn how to access and use the sidecut. Moving back will make the ski less hooky, feel a little longer and on a off-piste ski, it can help with tip dive. there are occasions when moving a binding back will actually enable you to access the sidecut better especially on a tapered tip design.

I bought some Dynastar Glory 89s and feel like the bindings are WAY too far forward, even though they are mounted on the line. They have a heavily tapered tip. I have been debating moving the bindings back (dammit, not demo bindings, though.) This makes me even MORE incline to do so. They are super turny, but I feel like there is a lot of tail behind me and not enough in front of me. They have a VERY tapered tip.

Thoughts??

And would an Attack 11 demo have the same screw pattern as an Attack 11? If so, it's VERY tempting to pick up some Attack 11 demos and throw them on there.

 

[ARL67]

Does an Attack 11 Demo even exist ?
I thought the Attack 13 Demo is the only Demo offering.

@ski otter 2
Your description on the Schizo usage is spot on. And I too carried stubby screwdriver for easy adjustment.
There was a knock on the older Schizo's that a plastic clip joining the 2 cables was prone to breaking, but since resolved.

For me, the 1/2 centimeter fixed adjustments on the Attack are small enough gradations for me .
But it is good that we have choices at our disposal to suit our particular likes , brand loyalties, even colour schemes.

 

[quant]

This thread made me realize I could fiddle with my mount position. My new-to-me skis came with demo Griffon's, which I found really easy to adjust.
So what is the mount point theory? Further forward does...... Back does.....what ?

Depends on the ski. In the old days I played with the ESS VAR (remember them?) on what today would be considered GS skis. A little adjustment front and back made a big difference. The skis were turnier when the bindings were moved forward and it allowed you to use the tails more, and better in powder when adjusted backward. I have demos on some K2s now and the front/back adjustment doesn't do any good...no advantage at all. Everything is better neutral. For those who are very light weight, top or bottom heavy, have really large or small boots, flex more/less, have longer/shorter legs, more/less rocker, etc. moving the bindings might make a bigger difference.

 

[DanoT]

Does an Attack 11 Demo even exist ?
I thought the Attack 13 Demo is the only Demo offering.

@ski otter 2
Your description on the Schizo usage is spot on. And I too carried stubby screwdriver for easy adjustment.
There was a knock on the older Schizo's that a plastic clip joining the 2 cables was prone to breaking, but since resolved.

For me, the 1/2 centimeter fixed adjustments on the Attack are small enough gradations for me .
But it is good that we have choices at our disposal to suit our particular likes , brand loyalties, even colour schemes.

The Tyrolia Attack 11 demo binding has an almost identical toe piece compared to the demo Attack 13, except for the spring rate difference. The heel pieces are a bit different and have a different method of determining the proper forward pressure.

I agree with your assessment of the infinite fine tuning forward pressure setting advantage of the Marker Griffon and Squire (but they are fiddlely and time consuming in a rental centre) and they work very well in terms of retention and release, except they are often very difficult and frustrating to step into on steep terrain or deep powder, something that you do not have to deal with in Ontario. We stop buying them where I work and we now mostly use Attack 11 and 13 demo bindings. There will be a Attack 14 for next year.

 

[DanoT]

I bought some Dynastar Glory 89s and feel like the bindings are WAY too far forward, even though they are mounted on the line. They have a heavily tapered tip. I have been debating moving the bindings back (dammit, not demo bindings, though.) This makes me even MORE incline to do so. They are super turny, but I feel like there is a lot of tail behind me and not enough in front of me. They have a VERY tapered tip.

Thoughts??

And would an Attack 11 demo have the same screw pattern as an Attack 11? If so, it's VERY tempting to pick up some Attack 11 demos and throw them on there.

I will try to remember to do a Attack 11 demo and non demo screw pattern comparison tomorrow at work, and then get back to you.

 

[ski otter 2]

Depends on the ski. In the old days I played with the ESS VAR (remember them?) on what today would be considered GS skis. A little adjustment front and back made a big difference. The skis were turnier when the bindings were moved forward and it allowed you to use the tails more, and better in powder when adjusted backward. I have demos on some K2s now and the front/back adjustment doesn't do any good...no advantage at all. Everything is better neutral. For those who are very light weight, top or bottom heavy, have really large or small boots, flex more/less, have longer/shorter legs, more/less rocker, etc. moving the bindings might make a bigger difference.

Yeah, I used to have the ESS VAR Atomic bindings on GS skis. Alas, I never thought to adjust them except for boot size. Eventually the plastic on the things rotted and broke: disintegrated, actually, while I was skiing them for a vintage ride day in spring.

On moving K2s forward and back: some of em like mount movement, some don't, in my experience. The 118 Annex/Pinnacle 184 didn't need or want such adjustment: it liked rec. mount point, for me (though I know one good skier who moves his back approx. 1/2 cm. to reduce vibration at high speed.)

But the Shreditor 102 and the Pettitor 120 both respond well for a lighter to mid weight/height guy or gal (140 to ~190 lbs.) to getting a longer ski (189/191) and moving the mount position 3 to 4 1/2 cm. forward (hoo-ray); while the shorter versions, 179/181?, respond well to movement between 0 and -2 for a bit lighter weight/height range person, perhaps. (The older K2 Obsetheds responded in a similar, favorable way: Seth Morrison usually skied his 191s @ 4 1/2 cm forward. He was under 165 lbs, I've been told. I'd see him at Loveland. That guy can ski. )

 

[ski otter 2]

P.S. Just as an example:

On those longer 191 Shreditor/Pettitors, what happens is the extra length gives easy, surreal stability, and the forward mount creates crazy good manueverability w/o sacrificing the ability to charge.

On the shorter 179/181s in the same models, the move backwards to as much as -2 cm. increases fore-aft stability in uneven crud w/o diminishing manueverability a whole lot. (So one might ski @ 0 on smooth snow days or groomer days, and @, say, -1 1/2 on rough, uneven crud days on that particular ski.)

Note: For me, when I first demoed them @ rec. mount point or zero, both the longer K2 Shreditors and Pettitors seemed like pretty ordinary skis, nothing that stood out for me. Same with the shorter Shreditor 102.

Without being told to adjust mount position by a bunch of folks, only the 179 Pettitor would have caught my attention.

 

[DanoT]

This thread made me realize I could fiddle with my mount position. My new-to-me skis came with demo Griffon's, which I found really easy to adjust.
So what is the mount point theory? Further forward does...... Back does.....what ?

Demo bindings are great for lending skis to friends. I don't have any friends...that I want to lend skis to, so if you really like demo Griffons, I have a used pair that I can take to the Whistler Gathering and sell them to you for $60CDN.

 

[Tony S]

I bought some Dynastar Glory 89s and feel like the bindings are WAY too far forward,

Because why? They LOOK like they're far forward, agreed. But why do you think Dynastar put the line where they did?

That said, I know dawgcatching did move bindings on some of his Dynastars, so if you're sure you've given them a fair shake as-is, go for it.

My suspicion is that people who don't like the mount point on these don't really get on with the ski design.

 

[mdf]

Dano: I've only skied on them for 2 days.

 

[cantunamunch]

Dano: I've only skied on them for 2 days.

But if you take him up on the offer you can shift position on your tried and trues...

 

[AmyPJ]

Because why? They LOOK like they're far forward, agreed. But why do you think Dynastar put the line where they did?

That said, I know dawgcatching did move bindings on some of his Dynastars, so if you're sure you've given them a fair shake as-is, go for it.

My suspicion is that people who don't like the mount point on these don't really get on with the ski design.

Turns out, the heel piece on the binding is 4mm higher than what I have on my other skis. That's a HUGE difference! I'm having toe lifters put on the bindings before I do anything else. It's funny, I kept saying that I felt like I was skiing on my toes. I was! I actually liked the skis and how easy they were to turn, but I just couldn't get a good balance point on them.

Interestingly, I have Attack 12s on my Santa Anas, which are quite flat (about a 3mm difference between toe and heel.) These bindings are Attack 11s and I'm quite shocked at the difference in heel height. (About a 7mm difference between toe and heel.) Why do manufacturers do this??!!

 

[Mike Thomas]

Turns out, the heel piece on the binding is 4mm higher than what I have on my other skis. That's a HUGE difference!

Interestingly, I have Attack 12s on my Santa Anas, which are quite flat (about a 3mm difference between toe and heel.) These bindings are Attack 11s and I'm quite shocked at the difference in heel height. (About a 7mm difference between toe and heel.) Why do manufacturers do this??!!

Different target customer, the 11 isn't a performance binding. That customer is more likely to need a little 'nudge' to get from the trunk to the backseat. The 12 on up are designed for skiers that either are not in the backseat or are skilled at skiing from there.

It's not a conspiracy.