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I want to play around with binding position

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Different target customer, the 11 isn't a performance binding. That customer is more likely to need a little 'nudge' to get from the trunk to the backseat. The 12 on up are designed for skiers that either are not in the backseat or are skilled at skiing from there.

It's not a conspiracy.

Huh. I haven't heard/seen this perspective before. Yet another hidden "gem" (or, rather, confounding and confusing and non-intuitive factor) added in when you decide to buy a binding with a particular max DIN.
 

Monique

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Until last year, my general assumption was that since I only have a 6.5 DIN, there was no benefit to getting a higher max DIN rating except for a beefier construction (ie, also heavier). And that possibly I would actually be getting a less effective binding since my DIN was on the low end. But it turns out that these higher max DIN bindings also transfer power better, tend to be more durable, and now - also have a different ramp angle??
 

James

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Ramps are all different. Go figure.
The "middle of the DIN range" myth is that afaik. It's a spring. F=kx.

You wouldn't want a junior binding that goes to 10 Din even if you ski at 6. It just can't clamp the boot properly for an adult 70+ lbs.

Welcome to bindings.
 

Monique

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Welcome to bindings.

And skis. And boots. They all have hidden/implied stats that aren't published. Drives me batty.
 

cantunamunch

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And skis. And boots. They all have hidden/implied stats that aren't published. Drives me batty.

Hehe, I actually used my own suggestion - drop a phone in on the bootboard to get ramp angle. Except I had to use a 2011 phone coz all the new ones are too hugeous to fit in the instep area of a 25.0 shell.
 

Monique

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Hehe, I actually used my own suggestion - drop a phone in on the bootboard to get ramp angle. Except I had to use a 2011 phone coz all the new ones are too hugeous to fit in the instep area of a 25.0 shell.

The boot board is internal to the boot, right? (Unless the manufacturer is no longer using boot boards - wasn't that a thing in another thread?) Is it possible to take a picture (minus the actual phone, which of course is required to take said picture)?
 

cantunamunch

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The boot board is internal to the boot, right? (Unless the manufacturer is no longer using boot boards - wasn't that a thing in another thread?) Is it possible to take a picture (minus the actual phone, which of course is required to take said picture)?

Err...sure, I can take a pic with a second phone. It'll have to go into my to-do list for next week tho.
 

Monique

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Err...sure, I can take a pic with a second phone. It'll have to go into my to-do list for next week tho.

I'm just trying to picture how you attach anything into the heel and toe to get an accurate picture. Maybe I'm overthinking things. I assume a piece of plywood would work just as well?
 

cantunamunch

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I'm just trying to picture how you attach anything into the heel and toe to get an accurate picture. Maybe I'm overthinking things. I assume a piece of plywood would work just as well?

No need to attach anything - if the boot board isn't flat, you'll find the highest angle point just by dropping the phone on its back and sliding it from heel to toe.
 

Philpug

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There are limitations with many bindings especially system ones. We are seeing some changes though. We are seeing more women's system bindings where the range is fron 260-320mm compared to some that go from 260mm all the way to 360mm, that is a lot of binding on a 146cm ski. We are also seeing more two part systems which allow gas pedling or canting IF needed.
 

AmyPJ

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Different target customer, the 11 isn't a performance binding. That customer is more likely to need a little 'nudge' to get from the trunk to the backseat. The 12 on up are designed for skiers that either are not in the backseat or are skilled at skiing from there.

It's not a conspiracy.

Then I could argue that a lifted heel has the opposite effect. I'm light. I can ski an 11 DIN binding just fine. I like the Attack bindings. I am disappointed that the Attack 11 has such a vastly different ramp angle than the Attack 12. The demo fleet at my mountain are all mounted (at least the women's skis) with Attack 11 demos. I'm curious now if they are also that steep. It DOES effect how a ski performs yet some people won't notice that. It's annoying. I'd rather deal with these types of differences by tweaking my own equipment, vs. guessing the ramp angle.

I had a friend put a caliper to my Attack 11s. The heel piece was 10mm higher than the toe! That's ridiculous. Take someone like me, with a short BSL, and it's a double whammy.

I might have a caliper on me when I test skis next month so I can measure the binding angles. It absolutely affects how skis feel to me, and not in a good way. I guess I should be grateful I've learned enough to now know that it's an issue for me.
 

Philpug

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Then I could argue that a lifted heel has the opposite effect. I'm light. I can ski an 11 DIN binding just fine. I like the Attack bindings. I am disappointed that the Attack 11 has such a vastly different ramp angle than the Attack 12. The demo fleet at my mountain are all mounted (at least the women's skis) with Attack 11 demos. I'm curious now if they are also that steep. It DOES effect how a ski performs yet some people won't notice that. It's annoying. I'd rather deal with these types of differences by tweaking my own equipment, vs. guessing the ramp angle.

I had a friend put a caliper to my Attack 11s. The heel piece was 10mm higher than the toe! That's ridiculous. Take someone like me, with a short BSL, and it's a double whammy.

I might have a caliper on me when I test skis next month so I can measure the binding angles. It absolutely affects how skis feel to me, and not in a good way. I guess I should be grateful I've learned enough to now know that it's an issue for me.
I have calipers packed to go to SIA.
 

DanoT

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@AmyPJ, You were asking if the screw pattern of the recreational Attack 11 is the same as the demo Attack 11 screw pattern. The answer is NO. The 2 screws affixing the toe piece to the ski are wider apart then the 4 screws holding the demo toe track to the ski. A professional mounting of the demo binding is required along with plugging the old holes from the rec binding.

I didn't actually check it out but I am guessing that with the demo toe being attached to a plate it probably sits higher on the ski than the rec toe and so there is probably less difference between toe and heel height with the Attack 11 demo binding.
 

Stephen Witkop

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Interestingly, I have Attack 12s on my Santa Anas, which are quite flat (about a 3mm difference between toe and heel.) These bindings are Attack 11s and I'm quite shocked at the difference in heel height. (About a 7mm difference between toe and heel.) Why do manufacturers do this??!!

Just had an aha moment! I've never thought much about ramp angle figuring whatever differences there were would be minor and you would adjust. While that may be most runners know there is a big difference in the heel - toe differential (drop) in their running shoes. Some people like 0 - 4mm (zero or low drop) while others prefer more traditional 12 - 16mm drop shoes. The big difference comes when you try and go from one to the other as anyone who has transitioned from traditional running shoes to zero drop can tell you. Try and do it all at once and your in for severe pain and possible injury so it is pretty obvious that sudden changes like this make a big difference in the muscles, ligaments etc. used when the angle is changed.

The feel can be much different too. Since I went to lower drop running shoes if I throw on my old Asics I feel like I'm in high heels so of course it's going to make a difference especially to someone like Amy who spends a lot of time in their equipment. Seems to me like the biggest thing would be consistency in your equipment.

Off check my own stuff...
 

Tony S

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It's annoying. I'd rather deal with these types of differences by tweaking my own equipment, vs. guessing the ramp angle.

Yeah, it's why I buy ground chiles, not "chili powder."
 

AmyPJ

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I have calipers packed to go to SIA.

Awesome. I'll be mindful of the ramp angle when testing. I kept thinking about the Dynastars, "I like these, but I don't like them. I feel like I'm on my toes." I thought they were mounted too far forward, now I'm doubting that. I'll take them out when the powder is gone, probably Friday, to see how they feel with the toe lifters.

@AmyPJ, You were asking if the screw pattern of the recreational Attack 11 is the same as the demo Attack 11 screw pattern. The answer is NO. The 2 screws affixing the toe piece to the ski are wider apart then the 4 screws holding the demo toe track to the ski. A professional mounting of the demo binding is required along with plugging the old holes from the rec binding.

I didn't actually check it out but I am guessing that with the demo toe being attached to a plate it probably sits higher on the ski than the rec toe and so there is probably less difference between toe and heel height with the Attack 11 demo binding.

Thanks!! Hopefully the toe lifter will be all I need. I might stop by the shop on my hill and ask if the guys have calipers to check the demo bindings. Just because I'm curious.
:)
 

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