I think I'm getting the hang of it...

[Fuller]

The wife and I warmed up a few days on hard groomers at Loveland, skied a day at Red Lodge with the same conditions and arrived in Whitefish last Monday for the start of our 8 weeks up here. The first 3 days were beautiful, inversion clouds making the top warm and sunny with the lower mountain cold and gloomy. Fun to experience but groomers all the way.

So after 6 days of carving practice we finally got some new snow starting Thursday. I had agreed to meet up with @Spnole who coincidentally hails from the Tampa Bay area, to show him around the mountain. So with my new ski buddy in tow we skied 2 days of fantastic conditions with virtually no lift lines or aggravations. We stuck to the groomed trails but thanks to the 3-6 inches of fresh and very little traffic it was a great place to try out my new bag of tricks - lifted from the Pugski Ski School pages.

At the end of last year I felt pretty frisky and centered but on the last two days we encountered 30" of new snow at Grand Targhee that really set me back so I've been anxious to try out some new (to me) tactics for lumpy conditions.

My mantra for this season is to greatly reduce the amount of skidding in my turns so I'm trying to carve everything I encounter with a more aggressive inside tipping move, rounding out my turn shape and staying on edge through the choppy stuff. I did not realize how effective an aggressive inside ski pull back is in soft snow. I've developed some decent counter and angulation that combined with the inside pull back really works for me in short turns. I mean I knew all this stuff in my head but somehow my body is doing mostly the right things now.

I signed up for the Men's Weekly Group Session this year and had my first lesson on Wednesday. It was a good 2 hours and I picked up an important tip that I was missing: my inside shoulder has been way too low and I drag my inside pole. The minute I corrected it my ski angle to the snow improved considerably. Suddenly I had edge hold on the somewhat firm surface, what a beautiful thing! I carried that over to the softer snow on Thursday and Friday and it works pretty well there too.

I guess I should have realized that basic skills underpin good skiing in all conditions but it surprised me all the same.

 

[JESinstr]

The wife and I warmed up a few days on hard groomers at Loveland, skied a day at Red Lodge with the same conditions and arrived in Whitefish last Monday for the start of our 8 weeks up here. The first 3 days were beautiful, inversion clouds making the top warm and sunny with the lower mountain cold and gloomy. Fun to experience but groomers all the way.

So after 6 days of carving practice we finally got some new snow starting Thursday. I had agreed to meet up with @Spnole who coincidentally hails from the Tampa Bay area, to show him around the mountain. So with my new ski buddy in tow we skied 2 days of fantastic conditions with virtually no lift lines or aggravations. We stuck to the groomed trails but thanks to the 3-6 inches of fresh and very little traffic it was a great place to try out my new bag of tricks - lifted from the Pugski Ski School pages.

At the end of last year I felt pretty frisky and centered but on the last two days we encountered 30" of new snow at Grand Targhee that really set me back so I've been anxious to try out some new (to me) tactics for lumpy conditions.

My mantra for this season is to greatly reduce the amount of skidding in my turns so I'm trying to carve everything I encounter with a more aggressive inside tipping move, rounding out my turn shape and staying on edge through the choppy stuff. I did not realize how effective an aggressive inside ski pull back is in soft snow. I've developed some decent counter and angulation that combined with the inside pull back really works for me in short turns. I mean I knew all this stuff in my head but somehow my body is doing mostly the right things now.

I signed up for the Men's Weekly Group Session this year and had my first lesson on Wednesday. It was a good 2 hours and I picked up an important tip that I was missing: my inside shoulder has been way too low and I drag my inside pole. The minute I corrected it my ski angle to the snow improved considerably. Suddenly I had edge hold on the somewhat firm surface, what a beautiful thing! I carried that over to the softer snow on Thursday and Friday and it works pretty well there too.

I guess I should have realized that basic skills underpin good skiing in all conditions but it surprised me all the same.

Good for you!

Just a few things...
1. If you are not doing so already, try thinking about tipping in terms of lifting the edges vs pushing them down
2. Understand that pulling your foot back is a fix for lack of proper vertical alignment. When your inside foot is reliably kept underneath, your inside leg is properly positioned to shorten via flexing, allowing for angulation and higher edge angles.
3. Allowing the pelvis to move laterally and level to the inside of the turn while your upper body remains vertical enhances the angulation process. You were probably dragging you inside pole because you were allowing your upper body to inclinate into the hill. Keeping the upper body vertical enhances upper/lower separation with a good counter being the result.
Enjoy!

 

[Fuller]

Just a few things...
1. If you are not doing so already, try thinking about tipping in terms of lifting the edges vs pushing them down.
Yes, what I'm going for is to move my inside hip, inside shoulder and inside ski up and out of the way, tipping to the little toe edge seems to create somewhat of a pivot point for the outside ski to move around. Bringing it back accentuates that pivot.

2. Understand that pulling your foot back is a fix for lack of proper vertical alignment. When your inside foot is reliably kept underneath, your inside leg is properly positioned to shorten via flexing, allowing for angulation and higher edge angles.
In what way would a skier typically be misaligned in this scenario? What should I be looking to avoid?

3. Allowing the pelvis to move laterally and level to the inside of the turn while your upper body remains vertical enhances the angulation process. You were probably dragging you inside pole because you were allowing your upper body to inclinate into the hill. Keeping the upper body vertical enhances upper/lower separation with a good counter being the result.
Yeah, I was definitely a banker (not the financial kind). I still get that way at the end of the day when I'm tired but the mornings are better!
Thanks

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I guess I should have realized that basic skills underpin good skiing in all conditions but it surprised me all the same.

It’s why the PSIA Alpine Team developed the list of fundamentals

 

[dj61]

Understand that pulling your foot back is a fix for lack of proper vertical alignment.!

Pulling your feet back in transition is the key to expert skiing.

 

[JESinstr]

Just a few things...
1. If you are not doing so already, try thinking about tipping in terms of lifting the edges vs pushing them down.
Yes, what I'm going for is to move my inside hip, inside shoulder and inside ski up and out of the way, tipping to the little toe edge seems to create somewhat of a pivot point for the outside ski to move around. Bringing it back accentuates that pivot.

2. Understand that pulling your foot back is a fix for lack of proper vertical alignment. When your inside foot is reliably kept underneath, your inside leg is properly positioned to shorten via flexing, allowing for angulation and higher edge angles.
In what way would a skier typically be misaligned in this scenario? What should I be looking to avoid?

3. Allowing the pelvis to move laterally and level to the inside of the turn while your upper body remains vertical enhances the angulation process. You were probably dragging you inside pole because you were allowing your upper body to inclinate into the hill. Keeping the upper body vertical enhances upper/lower separation with a good counter being the result.
Yeah, I was definitely a banker (not the financial kind). I still get that way at the end of the day when I'm tired but the mornings are better!
Thanks

What you just said in bold above answers your question in #2. Banking/ whole body inclination limits your ability to obtain higher edge angles and encourages excessive tip lead.

 

[Spnole]

@Fuller thanks for showing me around and a great few days! you were a gracious and expert host. I am happy to have a new ski buddy! Whitefish was amazing!

 

[JESinstr]

Pulling your feet back in transition is the key to expert skiing.

Properly moving on to the inside edge of your new outside ski will automatically allow your new inside foot to find its place underneath and in position to shorten.
There should be no need to actively pull it back unless, of course, you are not in control of the relationship between your BOS and COM

 

[Kneale Brownson]

EXACTLY

 

[Chris Geib]

EXACTLY

 

[Fuller]

Properly moving on to the inside edge of your new outside ski will automatically allow your new inside foot to find its place underneath and in position to shorten.
There should be no need to actively pull it back unless, of course, you are not in control of the relationship between your BOS and COM

I'm getting mixed signals on the specific mechanics of how this turn initiation happens. If you listen to the HH crowd there is a specific inside tipping movement that has to happen first. I've also heard many on Pugski say that the inside foot comes back aggressively, that both feet come back aggressively, that both skis tip at the same rate and do so simultaneously.

From my own experience I've been keenly aware the last couple of days as to how I'm initiating my turns and trying to recall the various sequences:

The aggressive inside tip / pullback works for me when it's steeper terrain and 3D snow.

In smoother low angle untracked soft snow I could tip both skis at the same rate and get a really nice progressive loading on the outside ski.

On groomed, steeper runs I could do some C shaped carving turns with very little tipping but I would typically have a lot of separation and counter and sort of just fall into the next turn. I've been trying to get to the Infinity Move and I can do it when the conditions are good.

So, are all these ways of turning just more tools for the tool box or is there only The One Way?
Does the inside foot pull back create vertical alignment or is it a result of vertical alignment?
Should alignment be achieved in some other (higher order) way?

I feel like I've just fallen down the rabbit hole...

 

[JESinstr]

I'm getting mixed signals on the specific mechanics of how this turn initiation happens. If you listen to the HH crowd there is a specific inside tipping movement that has to happen first. I've also heard many on Pugski say that the inside foot comes back aggressively, that both feet come back aggressively, that both skis tip at the same rate and do so simultaneously.

From my own experience I've been keenly aware the last couple of days as to how I'm initiating my turns and trying to recall the various sequences:

The aggressive inside tip / pullback works for me when it's steeper terrain and 3D snow.

In smoother low angle untracked soft snow I could tip both skis at the same rate and get a really nice progressive loading on the outside ski.

On groomed, steeper runs I could do some C shaped carving turns with very little tipping but I would typically have a lot of separation and counter and sort of just fall into the next turn. I've been trying to get to the Infinity Move and I can do it when the conditions are good.

So, are all these ways of turning just more tools for the tool box or is there only The One Way?
Does the inside foot pull back create vertical alignment or is it a result of vertical alignment?
Should alignment be achieved in some other (higher order) way?

I feel like I've just fallen down the rabbit hole...

Well, let's try and climb out of that hole shall we?

If you are talking turns, there is indeed only one way but it is not about technique. It is about the simple laws of physics and the conversion of straight line travel into circular travel (sorry DMan & LF). It is about what a moving ski, placed on edge and bent is designed to do. It's called the generation of Centripetal Force... it is called Carving. Like gold, carving is something we can grade for purity. How purely we can develop and maintain a Centripetal Carving State depends on a number of factors.

I don't know if anyone has ever made a pure carved turn. What I do know is that to have a shot, the skier needs to get their outside ski on edge well before the skis are heading into the fall line. I also know that the inside ski needs to be eliminated as a barrier to the role of the outside ski and the inside leg (through shortening) needs to be used as an edging enabler (angulation) for the outside ski until it can provide a more supportive role entering the bottom of the turn.

IMO, there is no better video to show this than Shiffrin's " Get over it" drill. If you can accomplish this drill you will have a solid foundation for carving, and will be free to take all the purity reducing shortcuts you want like rotary redirection, toppling, pulling your foot back and hooking (That's what I call Harb's approach) . Don't get me wrong, doing any of the aforementioned actions is fine. There are many reasons to use them. In fact, it is sometimes better to have a harder 14K gold ring than a soft 10K one.

In watching the video, of course pay attention to the narration about the outside but ALSO watch how the inside foot positions itself as a result of the skier's solid COM to BOS alignment with the outside ski.

 

[geepers]

Properly moving on to the inside edge of your new outside ski will automatically allow your new inside foot to find its place underneath and in position to shorten.
There should be no need to actively pull it back unless, of course, you are not in control of the relationship between your BOS and COM

Question on this....

In a Projected Productions "How To Ski" series vid - the one on foot placement - JF Beaulieu makes the points:
1. Length of the arc is longer for the outside foot compared to the inside
2. Friction is greater for the outside foot - we direct more weight to it and it is at greater edge angle

If we don't compensate for these factors the outside foot ends further back wrt the inside foot. With consequent issues for accessing joints.

I've experienced that, especially carving in heavy conditions. That outside foot gets dragged back. Since this doesn't happen to me in firm conditions - where the outside ski does not penetrate far into the snow - I believe I'm doing something right.

JFB advocates actively remedying this situation - pulling the inside foot back, bringing the outside foot through - as long as it is not overdone. His vid has various drills for finding correct foot placement and maintaining it through the turn

My question is: how do we "control the relationship between BoS and CoM" without doing either the inside pullback or the outside through - consciously or unconsciously? Setting it up at the top of the turn is fine and necessary but the friction forces are dynamic and build throughout the turn.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Why not think about it as HOLDING the new inside foot under you instead of letting it get to some place from which you need to pull it?

 

[Fuller]

Thanks @JESinstr , that made perfect sense and was nicely put.. I'd seen Mikaela's up and over drill a number of times and understood it but not to the point of being able to access the information. I'm fairly proficient on one footed turns as long as I'm on my big toe edge so this will be a bit of a challenge at first. I do wonder why the drill doesn't include keeping the new inside ski up off the snow and rolling over to the inside edge on the new downhill ski? She definitely puts that ski down before the fall line in the video.

edit - I missed your last point of how she places the new inside ski. I also notice she's using a quick double pole plant to manage her upper body placement.. I AM getting the hang of it!

(Un)fortunately there's 4 inches on new snow on previously groomed trails today, I might have to delay my higher education for one more day in favor having fun.

 

[geepers]

Why not think about it as HOLDING the new inside foot under you instead of letting it get to some place from which you need to pull it?

Well, not to get too hung up on definition of terms.... we can pull on a fixed object and nothing may move.

So if the inside foot is held/restrained wrt the outside foot then that's what we're supposed to do?

 

[JESinstr]

@geepers
From JF's "Developing new motor patterns" Youtube Video. "Edging happens as a RESULT of the inside leg getting shorter"
In order to make the inside leg shorter, the inside foot needs to be back underneath in order to shorten/flex properly. I think we both agree on that.

So to @Kneale Brownson 's point. why would you allow your inside ski to go someplace only to have to actively reposition it for optimal shortening (flexing) of the leg? As I originally stated, pulling back the inside foot is a fix and that would apply to being thrown out of balance in the "carving in heavy conditions" statement you mentioned above. Initiate with the inside foot underneath and KEEP IT THERE!

 

[geepers]

@geepers
From JF's "Developing new motor patterns" Youtube Video. "Edging happens as a RESULT of the inside leg getting shorter"
In order to make the inside leg shorter, the inside foot needs to be back underneath in order to shorten/flex properly. I think we both agree on that.

So to @Kneale Brownson 's point. why would you allow your inside ski to go someplace only to have to actively reposition it for optimal shortening (flexing) of the leg? As I originally stated, pulling back the inside foot is a fix and that would apply to being thrown out of balance in the "carving in heavy conditions" statement you mentioned above. Initiate with the inside foot underneath and KEEP IT THERE!

Thanks, will apply. Just need some fresh snow here to work on it.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

You can work on it in any snow.

 

[geepers]

You can work on it in any snow.

Not having an excessive lead problem in the very firm snow here right now. (Well, at least nothing I can see without vid.) Ski doesn't penetrate far so there's not a lot of difference in the drag between inside and outside ski.

I take your point that there's always more to do.