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Josh Matta

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upside down snow is ok on reverse sidecut skis.
 
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Mendieta

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That's where it is soft or fluffy underneath and crunchy/frozen or heavy/wet on top. Best case, hard to turn in, worst case, dangerous.

Ah, I only found this rarely and it sucks. But there is one thing that I find less desirable, and I really, would rather not be skiing. That would be completely frozen natural Snow. Not sure how people call it. It's really regular offpiste, but completely frozen to the point where you can't really tip on edge because it's rock solid. But it's so irregular that all you can do is bounce around that slippery thing. Luckily, the couple times this happened to me I could opt out and go back to a groomer. Pheeww. I guess I'm luck to live in the West !
 

Monique

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Ah, I only found this rarely and it sucks. But there is one thing that I find less desirable, and I really, would rather not be skiing. That would be completely frozen natural Snow. Not sure how people call it. It's really regular offpiste, but completely frozen to the point where you can't really tip on edge because it's rock solid. But it's so irregular that all you can do is bounce around that slippery thing. Luckily, the couple times this happened to me I could opt out and go back to a groomer. Pheeww. I guess I'm luck to live in the West !

I hit that once at the bottom of Beaver Creek, which is pretty low altitude for Colorado. But it looked just like powder, so I approached it as such. Bad times!
 

Monique

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upside down snow is ok on reverse sidecut skis.

I think it's better when you're a heavy tank with an aggressively "skis down the mountain" approach. At 230ish, Eric would just break through and ski below the surface. He didn't ski it fast, but a consistent turn with minimal sideways ski action. I'm getting better at "face down the mountain," but put your skis too far sideways, and it's trouble. And despite having been 200, I still didn't break through.

I realize you're not talking about that - just adding a bit.
 
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Mendieta

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I think it's better when you're a heavy tank with an aggressively "skis down the mountain" approach. At 230ish, Eric would just break through and ski below the surface. He didn't ski it fast, but a consistent turn with minimal sideways ski action. I'm getting better at "face down the mountain," but put your skis too far sideways, and it's trouble. And despite having been 200, I still didn't break through.

I realize you're not talking about that - just adding a bit.

Yes, the "worse" the snow, the more it challenges our balance and technique.

I tend to agree with @LiquidFeet that natural bumps are perhaps better for learning. Seeded bumps seem great for competition style mogul skiing, perfectly timed zipper line. Which is not really what we are aiming at, in this thread. Of course, low pitched, moderate seeded bumps can be good. But I think natural ones are just fine and more likely to offer easier lines.

I actually see groomer runs (2D) and bump runs (periodic 3D) as two ideal limits that nature wouldn't provide. Natural snow kind of feels in-between to me. Skiing in groomed runs and skiing in mogul runs (typically, un-groomed and skier tracked for a long time) allows me to play with different things (tactics/techniques), and I can have the most fun in natural snow putting all these things together.
 

Monique

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I tend to agree with @LiquidFeet that natural bumps are perhaps better for learning. Seeded bumps seem great for competition style mogul skiing, perfectly timed zipper line. Which is not really what we are aiming at, in this thread. Of course, low pitched, moderate seeded bumps can be good. But I think natural ones are just fine and more likely to offer easier lines.

Breck ski school has sometimes had a pretty great bump teaching segment - just a hundred or two hundred feet, big offset squares on the side of a designated "learning" blue ... hm, hard to explain, but they provide a super uniform environment in which to practice bump techniques with no deep troughs to throw you off.
 

Slim

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If that curvy sheet of ice ha some texture, then slip them and if you can do that then add A&E on the next run. That's a good way to add feathering the edges and A&E into muscle memory while skiing 3D terrain.

There have been times after a ra!n event where if the steeper pitches has true ice (the grayish type), I will spend my day on the lower angle bumps.

What do you mean with A&E?

I know in England they call the emergency Departement A&E, for Accident & Emergency , but I hope that’s not what you mean :)
 

Slim

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I hit that once at the bottom of Beaver Creek, which is pretty low altitude for Colorado. But it looked just like powder, so I approached it as such. Bad times!
I foolishly kept trying that over and over lastspring at Solitude. I would look at the bumps, or the ungroomed, and it looked so nice, and not like ice. Just a few tracks and little bits of tumbled snow.
Then I hit it and it was rock hard! Ice cubes, rock hard railroad trachks, horrible!
But it looked so good that every few hours or the next day, I would try again
 
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Mendieta

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I foolishly kept trying that over and over lastspring at Solitude. I would look at the bumps, or the ungroomed, and it looked so nice, and not like ice. Just a few tracks and little bits of tumbled snow.
Then I hit it and it was rock hard! Ice cubes, rock hard railroad trachks, horrible!
But it looked so good that every few hours or the next day, I would try again

:roflmao:

I know! It has this beautiful shine on it. It's like someone polished it for you. But I am so terrified that I learned fast, haha. If I can see _any_ reflection, I run away.
 

jack97

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I tend to agree with @LiquidFeet that natural bumps are perhaps better for learning. Seeded bumps seem great for competition style mogul skiing, perfectly timed zipper line. Which is not really what we are aiming at, in this thread. Of course, low pitched, moderate seeded bumps can be good. But I think natural ones are just fine and more likely to offer easier lines.

I agree that the intent of this thread is not competition style mogul skiing, however the reason I bring up learning on a low angle seeding bump run is that it has several beneficial aspects. The problem I see and hear is sometimes "natural bumps" take on odd shapes and trying to approach them is half the battle in learning the skills to ski them. By skiing in a uniform bump formation, the focus will be on developing the skills and techniques, not tactics. The other benefits are that a uniform formation allows for near repetition in movement and that leads to getting those movements into muscle memory. We all know that the more we get into muscle memory, things have a way of slowing down on steeper pitches. Furthermore, I know from first hand that when I ski a bump and experience that "aha" feeling, for example getting ready early, I want to immediately reinforce that and look for a similar bump shape and do it again. I remember at times when experiencing that "aha" feeling on a natural bump trail, I would spend the whole day trying to replicate that but couldn't because I either could not find the right bump nor approach in the same manner.
 

Monique

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I'm not sure what a seeded bump run looks like, but does it allow you to learn the technique of going wide up the sides of the bumps? Instructor Dirk (RIP) called this the "cereal bowl" line - picture skiing the inside of a bowl. It's not always there - but when it's there, it's a nice gentle line. I avoid the bottoms of troughs like the plague - that's where the gravel lives.
 

dbostedo

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I'm not sure what a seeded bump run looks like, but does it allow you to learn the technique of going wide up the sides of the bumps? Instructor Dirk (RIP) called this the "cereal bowl" line - picture skiing the inside of a bowl. It's not always there - but when it's there, it's a nice gentle line. I avoid the bottoms of troughs like the plague - that's where the gravel lives.

Seeded bumps are just very regular, since a machine puts them down to start with all the same height and spacing. But I've seen seeded bumps I'd call steep or deep, and some that are much gentler. And it still matters how much they get skied too. Here's an example :

aal.jpg
 

jack97

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^^^^ that pic looks sweet.

There's several ways to seed a bump run. Below is how Sunnapee (NH) does it for their freestyle team. By some people's opinion, they went overboard and went almost across the width of the trail. I beg to differ.

 
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tball

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@Monique seeded bumps don't apply to us recreational skiers here in Colorado. The only time they seed bumps is for mogul competition courses, then those are roped off and only competitors allowed. After the competition, they generally knock them down.

There's a course set up at Copper Mountain right now at the bottom of Rosie's Run. It's usually a steep groomed run and it's the last pitch on the US Ski Team's Speed Center downhill training course. They blew whales of snow then built a bump course with a cat for a competition.

download (2).jpeg


You'll be able to see it better when the sun hits it in a few minutes.

You can also watch the competition on live video on the Super Bee webcam:
https://www.coppercolorado.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain/super-bee-hd-cam

I'm headed over that way shortly and will take some pictures.
 

Monique

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@Monique seeded bumps don't apply to us recreational skiers here in Colorado. The only time they seed bumps is for mogul competition courses, then those are roped off and only competitors allowed. After the competition, they generally knock them down.

There's a course set up at Copper Mountain right now at the bottom of Rosie's Run. It's usually a steep groomed run and it's the last pitch on the US Ski Team's Speed Center downhill training course. They blew whales of snow then built a bump course with a cat for a competition.

View attachment 64409

You'll be able to see it better when the sun hits it in a few minutes.

You can also watch the competition on live video on the Super Bee webcam:
https://www.coppercolorado.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain/super-bee-hd-cam

I'm headed over that way shortly and will take some pictures.

Periodically, we stop on Peerless at Breck to watch the kids' bump practice. Same deal - roped off - probably not as long or steep. Very cool.
 

Josh Matta

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Seeded bumps are just very regular, since a machine puts them down to start with all the same height and spacing. But I've seen seeded bumps I'd call steep or deep, and some that are much gentler. And it still matters how much they get skied too. Here's an example :

aal.jpg

Where is that?

Last time I saw something like was Okemo use to seed bumps, so easy to ski.
 
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Mendieta

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20180512_105152.jpg
Here is a picture from Squaw, from last spring. Siberia bowl. There are both natural bumps all over the place, and a thin strip in the center of seeded bumps. A youth team with USST jackets if I remember correctly was training there. Unbelievable, seeing them come down with perfect rhythm, full speed, down the steepest part of the bowl.

Needless to say, none of these are "beginner bumps", but I thought it would be fun to compare natural occurring and seed bumps, side by side.
 

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